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Coils-#&$%@


By pearl, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sun Aug 17th, 2003 at 11:25:47 AM MST
Pearl

Please, help again,I have 1" dia. 3/8" thick. Had planned to use 12 and 12 coils on a disc rotor. All I get is milliamps,the needle on my meter just shakes back and forth and not much of that. I've added mags,14,16,18 upto 20..Still nothing. My coils are #14 mag wire,20 rounds each. O.D. is 2" high,1 1/2" wide..I.D. is 1 1/2" high, 1 1/8" wide. So whats the problem? What should the size of my coils be? Thanks for all your help.
Coils-#&$%@ | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#1)
by Electric Ed on Sun Aug 17th, 2003 at 11:51:00 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.electric-ed.com

Sounds like the magnet poles are "cancelling", or possibly the coil voltages are cancelling.

Try measuring one coil at a time and see if there is a voltage.

The coil voltages will not add unless they are "in phase". See the basic principles below.

Electric Ed



Re: Coils- for Elect. Ed (none / 0) (#5)
by pearl on Mon Aug 18th, 2003 at 03:17:59 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Ed, I have rewound coils now,I.D. is 1",,O.D. is 1 1/2"...Now can I use 1" wood dole rod sliced 3/8" thick to keep my centers of the coils and one in between the coils to keep spacing. I am using 1" round mags..So now,I got 1" in the center- -and 1" between coils. This puts my magnets 1/4" apart, will this be a problem? I have 11 coils,#16 mag wire,35 turns,and 22 magnets 1"x3/8".. Thank you for all input and anyone elses input.I love this,but having hard troubles gettin my tee's crossed and my EYE'S dotted.

[ Parent ]


Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#2)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2003 at 01:23:44 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

have you measured the output of 1 coil only?

are you using an AC voltmeter and an AC ammeter?

before winding all the coils I always test 1 first...  if it works then you cannot miss so long as you hook  them together right.



Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#4)
by pearl on Sun Aug 17th, 2003 at 05:50:22 PM MST
(User Info)

I have tesed 1 coil,I used a so called, ohm,AC-DC voltage meter that I bought at a NAPA store. It does the same thing with one,two or three coils. I think its the timing of coils and mags [as Ed said] and I don't have that timing. So, I'm building another stator. I'm using 1" wood dole rod cut 3/8" slices, 1 inside the coil,1 between the coils to keep my spacing. Will this work?  Thank You for your input.

[ Parent ]


Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#3)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Sun Aug 17th, 2003 at 04:22:37 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

A picture of the arrangement would be most helpful.
is it a dual rotor ?
are the magnets attracting or opposing ?
are the magnets alternating North South North South etc ?
what size is the magnet in relationship to the coil ?
what is the air gap ?
.

W o o f -={(



Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#6)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Tue Aug 19th, 2003 at 01:31:42 AM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

Hi,

one important thing is that there is a difference
concerning hooking the coils together, if
your alternator

a)is a single magnetic disk arrangement, single phase (as the original otherpower 'Volvo') system with laminates
or
b) a dual disk system as the 'Hugh Piggott
style' later otherpower generators are.

----

With the single disk the magnets are alternating:
... -N-P-N-P- ...

So the coils must be hooked after
each other:
...-in-in-out-out-in-in-...

As in this picture:

I'm assuming that all your coils are laid on the
stator the same way.

---

We need to know, if you are making your alternator
the same way as the original 'Volvo' alternator
of the 'otherpower' or not.

That arrangement is easy to get working.
You simply make the coils so that they occupy
a little bigger space than the magnets. Lay the magnets so that they are alternating
... -N-P-N-P- ...
and leave such a space between them that totally
your coils and magnets make same diameter
rings.

Please see the pictures
http://www.otherpower.com/wardalt.html

---
Please NOTE:

It is best to measure the coils one by one
and hook the coils after each other measuring the
output each time assuring that the output
rises every time, when you hook one more coil.
---

Please NOTE:

That kind of a single phase system with laminates is not the most effective way to use your magnets. You will get a better output if you make your generator as a three phase.

After you understood the idea of the single phase
machine with laminates it is easy to understand the layout of three phase alternators with an otherwise similar arrangement
with one magnet disk and laminates.

Please see the excellent pages at:
http://www.windstuffnow.com

And various posts and pictures here at this discussion board by Electric Ed during many discussions concerning coil layouts.

---

Further,
many people are thinking that a dual
disk arrangement with two magnet disks without
laminates, but the coils in between the magnet disks is a better arrangement.

I don't know which one is the most effective.
They work a bit differently concerning the
way the magnetic flux is creating current in
the coils. I think that only exact measurements
could tell, how to get the best out from
your magnets.

But certainly by studying the excellent pictures by Electric Ed and the various other posts here concerning the layout and shapes of coils and hooking them together you will get your alternator working.

- Hannu




Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#7)
by pearl on Tue Aug 19th, 2003 at 05:54:33 AM MST
(User Info)

Hannu, Thank you for the Info. I am tring to build a single rotor mill. If enough folks help me out I might get this done. I don't know how to check a single coil without making the complete stator, then if its wrong, the hole thing is junk and I got to start over. My mags are N-S-N-S and I had 1/8" air gap. When I tried to check one coil with the meter,turning the rotor slow. The neetle just went back and forth about 1/16",,the faster I turned it, it didn't do anything. But I'm gona try it again..Thank you for your help. Pearl  

[ Parent ]


Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#8)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Tue Aug 19th, 2003 at 12:05:57 PM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

Hello,

I must add to my previous mail that the connections of the coils are based on the layout of the original 'Volvo' alternator of 'the otherpower'.

There the magnets are laid very near each other so that there is not such a space between the coils either as in the drawings of Electric Ed.

The requirement of getting the span of coils and the span of magnets in good relationship is with that arrangement quite 'automatic'.
But you must be careful to hook
the coils together the right way.

----------------------------------------
If you do the spacing of the magnets
so that they are far from
each other as in
Ed's drawing you must
put the coils carefully
according to the drawing of Ed.

--------------------------------------

Please Note:
Many people think that the idea
of putting magnets near each other
as in the original 'Volvo' generator
is not the best one,
because there might be a lot of
'leakage' of the flux from a magnet
to the next magnet.

I think that the leakage is quite small,
if the gap from the magnets
to the laminates is small.
In any case the original 'Volvo'
alternator works very well.
------------------------------------------

There are many ways to make
a permanent magnet alternator.
The original 'Volvo' alternator
design is one of the easiest.
Maybe not the best.

One very important thing is
the relationship
of the coils span to the magnet span
exactly as Ed is telling in his post.

I think that your measurement problem
might be due to measuring amps.

Try to measure volts.

You cannot get much amps by turning by hand,
but when measuring volts you probably
can see the difference if you hook two coils together compared to one coil only.

1)
Did you measure amps or volts?

2)
Did you measure AC or DC?

3)
Do you mean that the 1/8" gap is between the
magnets and the coils?

- Hannu

[ Parent ]



Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#9)
by Junkie on Tue Aug 19th, 2003 at 04:14:16 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.reukpower.blogspot.com

I could be wrong but it sounds like your using a DC voltmeter to measure AC volts! Your coil will output AC.

-Chris

[ Parent ]



Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#10)
by pearl on Tue Aug 19th, 2003 at 06:45:12 PM MST
(User Info)

Hannu, Thanks again,I measured in miliamps because thats the only way I could get the neetle to move.And I don't know if a single or duel rotor is AC or DC,,I did'nt want to ask and appear to be some what lacking...And yes on the 1/8" air gap between mags and coils.  On my resin disc I just scraped the coils,they were 1 1/2" I.D. wide all 12 of them.But they only had 3/4" out side leg to the next coil out side leg and my mags are 1"..so that was'nt uniform ,being center to center and side by side..Am I on the right track here????? Thank You Hannu

[ Parent ]


Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#11)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Tue Aug 19th, 2003 at 07:04:58 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

The best way to measure the coil or coils is to go ahead and recify the output with a Bridge Rectifier and a smoothing Capaciter (4700mfd)to get good filtered DC Voltage. Then put some kinda small load on it, I use a 1000 ohm resister. Set your meter for DC voltage and use the final reading as if that will be what the generator will be feeding your batteries.
.

W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


Re: Coils-#&$%@ (none / 0) (#12)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Wed Aug 20th, 2003 at 01:51:09 AM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

"But they only had 3/4" out side leg to the next coil out side leg and my mags are 1"..so that was'nt uniform ,being center to center and side by side.."

This I don't exactly understand.

a)
But if you have got your coils arrangement a such way that the center of each coil is in the center
of a magnet when the magnet disk (the rotor) and
the coil disk (the stator) are laid on the top
of each other, your stator is more or less OK.

b)
I got the impression that you've
got 12 coils and 12 magnets.
Is this correct?

c)
Please see the pictures of the original
'Volvo' alternator.

This is the reason the original 'Volvo'
alternator is so easy to get working.
You have no need to worry so much about
the exact dimensions to get it working.

But later when you become convinced that it
works this way, you can study the details
how to make it really good. By studying the
best shapes of the coils, making it with
three phases etc.

------------------------

Each coil produces in principle AC.
You have to use a rectifier to get
the ready alternator charging a battery.

If you put your meter to measure voltage AC
you should be able to see the difference,
when hooking together two coils compared
to the measurement of one coil only.

You should make your coils with so many turns
that you could turning fast with hand get
about 1V from one coil. In order to get
the alternator charging easily a 12V battery.

If your coils are in phase one coil produces
1V; adding the next, together they'll produce 2V, adding the third you'll get 3V etc.

If the voltage is not getting higher
by adding together more coils
then you are connecting them the wrong way.
It is that simple.

You can check the results by a snall
flashlight lamp as well. It should get brighter
and brighter the more you connect coils.  

--------

Further: if you are hooking your coils
opposite ways your alternator becomes really
hard to turn, because the coils are canceling
each other. You can realize the wrong
arrangement easily from that phenomena, too.

- Hannu



Coils-#&$%@ | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)
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