the Otherpower.com Discussion Board || Dual rotor stator ...

Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Rants & Opinion - Diaries - Our Products

Dual rotor stator ...
By windstuffnow, Section Homebrewed Electricity Posted on Thu Sep 18th, 2003 at 10:23:46 AM MST
Thoughts on making them thinner

Here is a drawing on the idea of making the stator on a dual rotor system thinner. Basically a plastic disc with holes drilled into it for winding the coils. This would spread out the coils making them much thinner to increase efficiency/power from the unit. This would also help to keep the resistance down. After it was wound you would have to make a mold for the mounting tangs and pour the plastic around the wires. The drawing shows a 12 pole 36 slot disc.
Continuous thoughts... Have Fun... Ed

Dual rotor stator ... | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#1)
by Old F on Thu Sep 18th, 2003 at 11:20:56 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.oldf.homestead.com

Hi ED

To make it easier to build how about a 1/4 inch thick plywood disk with 3/4 inch pine wedges

glued to it. Than after winding the coils you set it in a mold and cast resin over it.

This way you could get by with hand tools.

Just a thought.

Old F

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#2)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Thu Sep 18th, 2003 at 12:22:29 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

That would work. You'd have to make a jig to crush the coils down when you were done to keep the thickness down. The idea above is basically the same, you only need a drill and hack saw and probably a jig saw to cut the circle out. Also a protractor to lay it out. I think it would help contain the wires in the area the magnets are moving in. You still have to deal with the thickness of the overlapped wires on the outer and inner part of the ring but the magnetic area would still be quite thin.
I'm sure there is a better way... keep thinking.

Have Fun
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#3)
by JB on Thu Sep 18th, 2003 at 03:20:16 PM MST
(User Info)

excellent idea there Ed. JB

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#4)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Thu Sep 18th, 2003 at 03:29:37 PM MST
(User Info)

thinking you could wave wind it if you worked out how much wire to use.

keep having fun i am.

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#6)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Thu Sep 18th, 2003 at 08:31:49 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Use lots of small magnets and simply push copper bar stock through the holes and wire it like a wave winding. End up with negative resistance.... ok not quite but pretty darn low. I built one using bar stock makes a heck of a welder ;O)

Have Fun
Ed
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#5)
by zubbly on Thu Sep 18th, 2003 at 05:51:30 PM MST
(User Info) www.zubbly.com

one of the best ideas I have seen yet. fantastic!
zubbly.

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#7)
by JB on Thu Sep 18th, 2003 at 08:46:40 PM MST
(User Info)

OK ED. You got me thinking now. I have some 9 1/4 by 3/4 round delrin discs. Now here are my ??. If you knew how you were going to wire this either star or delta could you wire or actually be snaking the wire 3 slots next to one another and go over 4 slots and do the same, I think thats delta but im not sure and keep on goin without a bunch of splices so in the end you would end up with 6 wires and no splices instead of 24 wires and splices or would the wires from the other coils or other phase cancel things out as they would be going over the top of the others on the outside diameter. I was thinking of doing this on my mill with a superspacer and making a groove in the inside and outside diameter to keep all the wires tidy. I hope you understand my ??.The hub and discs are not a problem. I finally got that part figured out.Im a little slow. Thanks JB

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#9)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 08:20:42 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Hi JB, I'm not sure I understand what your trying to explain... I usually wind them just like a single phase. But add two more phases in. So in the stator above you would have 12 poles, one coil for each of the poles make up one phase. So you'd start in one slot, skip two slots and finish the coil in the 4th slot. So the first coil would have 2 empty slots between it when your done. The second coil would be wound in the reverse direction as the first and so on until all 12 coils are in place. Second phase goes in the next open slot to the right wired the same as the first phase, and finally the remaining slots are filled with the same configuration. You end up with 3 starts and 3 ends of which you can wire it for star or delta or set it up for both with a switch.

I'm not real good at explaining things... sometimes pictures are much better than words and I think some time back electric Ed posted a diagram of the same winding arrangement. I'll see if I can find it...

Have Fun in any case..
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#11)
by Electric Ed on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 10:55:28 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.electric-ed.com

Perhaps it was this sketch Ed was referring to.

Electric Ed

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#13)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 11:26:42 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Hi electric Ed,
I think its the one but it seems like you had another one that was closer. When I wind them each coil shares the same slot as the one before and after it. Seems to compact the wire better. I use 2 poles for 3 coils but the second set of 3 is partially covered by the first two magnets... I don't know if that came out right... I can see it but words don't seem to make the picture. Basically 3 legs under each magnet.

Have Fun
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#14)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 12:45:54 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

I made an attempt to diagram the wiring I'm talking about...

In the diagram, Red is phase 1, green phase 2 and blue phase 3. The grey represents the magnets. Each coil shares a slot with the coil before and after. This allows 6 legs positioned under each magnet or 6 coils are affected by each magnet. This allows you to pack alot of copper in small areas and allows for less turns per coil to achieve the same output of other configurations. This ultimately helps to lower resistance as well as cure other problems.

Have Fun!
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#15)
by JB on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 03:43:55 PM MST
(User Info)

Ok Ed. I got ya covered now. Thank You. That word reverse in there through me for a loop but after about 6 times I figured it out. 36 slots that has to be.Got ya covered there also. Now my last ?? for a little bit. I got 1500 feet of 22 gauge neopreme covered door bell copper wire and 8 large neos. I realize that aint enough magnets for a non laminated dual rotor machine but im thinking that should be enough for a single rotor machine with 12 poles 3 phase.I hope im right on this. I guess I should by the book but my basic question is if I put a lot of turns of this 22 gauge would I get some good results or should I await till i get some money and buy the book and some 14 or 18 gauge. Thanks JB

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#16)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 06:55:36 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

JB, using 22 wire won't make a power wagon but it will make a nice learning machine. Use 24 slots with 8 magnets or 12 slots with 4 magnets on each rotor. If you use a small diameter prop ( like 2 or 3 ft) it will run faily fast. Set it up for a TSR of about 3 or 4.
A 2ft prop at a TSR of 3 will run just over 400 rpm in a 10 mph wind so you really don't need to over do the amount of turns per coil.

Have Fun
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#18)
by JB on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 08:25:56 PM MST
(User Info)

Okie Dokie Ed. Thank You.Im still having fun. I havent messed up anything on this one Yet|||$$$$$$. Ive built an induction motor and a pm motor and they worked ok through trial and error and lots of time of course. I was thinking the 8 magnets and 24 slots basically the single rotor type 3 phase but I got to do a little more thinking. The magnets are 1 1/4 by 1 1/2 by 1/4 thick. If i put 24 evenly spaced slots they wouldnt cover all 3 legs at the same time not at a 9 1/4 inch diameter anyway. I could make 24 slots in 8 bunches of 3 making them either 1 1.4 wide or 1 1/2 wide by drilling 8 evenly spaced holes on the outer edge and a hole on both sides of them to the width of the magnets so I would end up with 8 magnets over 8 of the 12 coils or I can downsize the diameter of the rotor. I really dont want to go single phase. Decisions Decisions Decisions. JB

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#21)
by JB on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 01:00:53 PM MST
(User Info)

Hello ED and others. Im thinking that my yesterdays thinking and last post was messed up. If i space 24 slots evenly and 8 magnets evenly everything should line up to one of the 3 phases. Im thinking I dont have to cover 3 legs at the same time. just one phase at the same time.I wonder If Im thinking correctly now. Thanks JB

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#22)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 01:23:15 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Thats right JB... As long as everything is lined up it should work. Its better to cover as much of the wire with magnets as possible but even if the magnet only covers one leg at a time it will work. More magnetic surface means more power.

Lots of fun!
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#23)
by JB on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 01:59:23 PM MST
(User Info)

Why Thank You Very Much Ed. I was getting a little Goofy thinking there. I was looking at the Dans triplets and then Electric Eds Diagrams and Your new stator Idea and getting foggy. Then I realized Electric Eds Diagrams are one for Dans type wiring scheme and One similar to Your wiring scheme which uses less magnets and more coils where Dans wiring uses more magnets and less coils. Thanks again. This is Very Nice of You. JB

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#24)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 03:46:55 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

JB, you can download the instructions to my educational turbine to get an idea of how I do my windings ( as well as anyone else interested ). Maybe you already have... The little alternator uses 6 magnets and is a 3 phase system so there are 18 coils.

http://www.windstuffnow.com/3phasekit.pdf

It will give you a better representation of how I've been doing most of my alternators. To make it much easier for beginners I wind one large coil for each phase and its twisted into the slots. By doing it this way you end up with each coil reversed from the one before it.

If you have a large coil of 50 turns twist it and fold it in half you now have a coil of 100 turns, in half again you have 200 turns. So my little turbine basically has 6 folds or the equivilant of 300 turns of wire per phase and a total of 900 turns of wire in a tiny space.

Lots of wierd ideas that turn into something useful...

Have Fun
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#27)
by JB on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 07:58:04 PM MST
(User Info)

Hello Ed. I just figured out Acrobat reader and downloaded it and your diagrams. I think i see what you are doin. I was going to do it wrong. I was going to fill up slots one and four and then go to slots seven and 10 but wind them in the other direction fill them and so on. The way you are doing it slot 4 will be completely filled when you are doing 4 and 7 and slot 7 will be filled when you are doin slot 7 and 10 and so on. Basically the next slot 3 over will be filled halfway and filled all the way when you are doin the next slot 3 over from it. I hope I explained this ok and that sounds right? Thank You. JB

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#8)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 07:02:25 AM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

That stator design looks almost exactly like the stator in the "3 phase turbine kit" offered on the windstuffnow site . . .

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3phase_turbine_kit.htm
.
-- W o o f

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#10)
by boomer on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 08:52:08 AM MST
(User Info)

hi ed I am Handy Andy (post as boomer). I would like to say thanks for posting so many usefull drawings this one is awesome. For some reason this drawing cleard up how you can overlap coils and have the same amount of flux through pass through both legs of the coil. Do you have any suggestions how to deal with the big 3 coil overlap that happens on the inside and outside without loosing that nice small gap?

Handy Andy

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#12)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 11:17:32 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Hello, boomer
On the outside of the rotor it really isn't a problem since the magnet rotor rides over the thin part of the stator. The problem arises within the center. This would have to be dealt with by using fairly thick magnets or at least thick enough to provide clearance between the discs and wires. The outer diameter you could make a mold to pour plastic around the wires and incorporate a mounting structure. This would allow for leaving a portion of the wires exposed for cooling and some would be enclosed in resin. I haven't built, just an idea so there is lots of room for improvements.
Another idea was to make 2 rings with wire hooks ( as posted earlier ) making the windings similar to bike spokes. This would be much harder to make the coils remain thin but wouldn't require any resin and the coils would be exposed. Also, the outer ring would serve as a mounting structure.
Lots of ideas... little time to try them all...

Have Fun
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#17)
by TomW on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 07:59:46 PM MST
(User Info)

Woofer;

Heres a news flash:

Ed is Windstuffnow.com.

And between Ed an Jerry they have probably built more wind machines than you and I will ever see. Both have been continuing contributors here for years.

Cheers.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#19)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 19th, 2003 at 09:37:04 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Ed, Thats a sweet idea. I think a simple round mould like normal, and insert wood dowels into place. I think the acuracy will be the issue, but when your working dry and slow it would be better. As long as the dowels are lubed or waxed up good you could then just slide them out when the mold is completed. Then a simple small cut with a hand saw per each center point where the dowel is and wola! done. I'm interested on how you do with this one! Good Luck!
Fred
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#20)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 08:18:43 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Thats a good idea iFred... Especially if you wanted to do a few of them instead of building "one offs" It would take a bit more work to lay it out and set it up but once you had it made you could make dozens of them as long as the mold lasted.
It was just an idea and I really hadn't planned on building one right away. It seems my mind wanders and ideas pop up now and then that I put down in a journal and when I have time I like to try new things. Looking back through my "idea" book sometimes what seemed like a good idea at first doesn't always work well in real life... others do... so I have to at least give them a try...

Have Fun
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#25)
by Old F on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 06:02:24 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.oldf.homestead.com

iFred

Looking at this like a foundry pattern you could use key stock glued to the bottom of the
mold to from square slots in the casting.

You mite have to round the corners of the key stock a little. So that what will be the bottom of the slot of the finished stator will release from the mold this is called draft.
This would not be to hard to set up for a one of .

Old F

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#26)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 06:18:59 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

OldF, thats actualy a great idea. You could really pack it with alot of wire either turns or wire size depending on what you wanted out of it. Could almost make a corragated type structure. This is getting better every minute.
I take it you used to work in a foundry or still do?

Have Fun! Keep thinking!
Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#28)
by Old F on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 09:08:02 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.oldf.homestead.com

Well ED

Foundry work is one of my other hobbies. All I cast is aluminum and a little brass.
I know there are some others here that do some casting too.
I think by go to a stack type mold you could center a square core that can be removed after
it is setup. Let me think on this and I can try to come up with some drawings.

Old F

Have so much fun it should be illegal : )

[ Parent ]

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#29)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 10:36:10 PM MST
(User Info)

Yes, that sounds about right! A single mold could be reusable if made properly. You know, you could have a slot on the dowel that is raised and ends in the bottom of the mold so that your cut is even made for you. Very cool!! I wonder what OLD F is thinking???? ummmm.. casting and foundry.. Very Cool!!!
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#30)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 10:54:26 PM MST
(User Info)

This is what I was thinking!!
Fred.

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!

Re: Dual rotor stator ... (none / 0) (#31)
by Old F on Sun Sep 21st, 2003 at 07:47:48 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.oldf.homestead.com

Here some thing that could work.

It is a split mold . When you lay out your mold you would drill holes the dia of your
slot cores on the edge of the mold and the center mold core this will give you slots
to place the key stock cores and hold them in place
This will all so give you some thing to get a hold of when it comes time to remove the cores from the stator.

You would have to coat the cores with melted wax so you can get them out.
And I am thinking you could use a hair dryer to heat the cores soften the wax if need be.

Sorry about the ruff drawing all I have and know how to use is paint.

Old F

[ Parent ]

Dual rotor stator ... | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 editorial)

Menu

� create account
� How to use the board
� FAQs
� search the board
� Google search the board
� Old Otherpower Board

Login

Make a new account

Username:

Password:

Total Views

��93 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links

� Also by windstuffnow

You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest � 2003 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!