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How many KW generator do I need?


By Farmer, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Mon Oct 18, 2004 at 10:28:08 PM MST
Selecting the right generator to meet my current needs while still allowing for future growth.

I need a generator which will power my shop and house. I am moving to an off-grid location in 3 months, we will be at about 6,500 feet above sea level.

I plan on using a small battery bank to power the lights. The other loads in the house will be a washing machine, computer and satellite internet/telephone connection, radio, blender, and curling iron.

I my biggest load currently is a 2HP 115V motor on my mill & drill. I also have a 1 hp motor on the lathe.  Of course I also have a number of fractional horsepower motors on other tools.

I currently do my welding with the oxy-acetylene torch but plan on adding an arc welder as soon as I have the $. So I will need to be able to generate 220 VAC as well as 110 VAC.

I do not feel any need to be able to run everything all at once.

I hate noise with a passion so I want the quietest generator I can get. To meet my need for a quiet generator with a long work life I assume the Listeroids are the way to go. My problem is that I don't know which engine to select because I don't know how many KW I need. I don't want too big of engine that will just waste fuel but neither do I wish to have too small of an engine and have to build a second generator.

What size of engine and head would be a good match to meet my current needs, and still leave capacity to add a couple more loads?

My generator will be the only source of electrical power as the grid does not reach this area and may never arrive.

How many KW generator do I need? | 14 comments (14 topical)

Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 01:22:57 AM MST

Motor starting is likely to be your main problem, you don't say whether your 2hp motor is single phase or 3 phase.

If it is 3 phase it will be a lot easier to start, but as the rest of your loads are likely to be single phase you would have to spread them fairly evenly round the 3 phases for best results.

I would be inclined to over size the alternator, perhaps 10kVA, but you can probably manage with about 10hp on the engine.

10hp and a 10kVA alternator will manage a reasonable size welder. You could consider a separate welder generator as it is not likely to be used often.

It depends a great deal on the type of alternator. A good stiff alternator with voltage regulator of 4kVA might start a 2hp motor off load when a poor 8kVA wouldn't

Motor starting and welding present a reactive load which will tax the alternator but are not so demanding on the engine.

Heating loads are the ones that will mop up the engine power.

Flux



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by ghurd on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 08:05:04 AM MST

You should dig deep into all the posts here you can.
Solar and wind to batteries will be a quiet efficient way to run the lights, computer, radio, etc. without running an engine to listen to the radio.
But you knew that.
G-



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by zmule on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 09:12:59 AM MST

With a Listeroid, figure 1/2 the HP rating of the engine in Kilowatt output using one of those ST heads at 1800 rpm. The slower they run, the quieter they are and the longer they last. You have to look at the specs to see what rpm the HP rating is at. there are many engines to choose from. I will be helping a friend build a unit with a 25/2 that runs at 850rpm and will be belted to a 15kw head. We think it will produce a steady 10-12KW 24-7. Not sure how noisy this will be. The Indians make many variations including engines with the same bore and stroke running 3 different rpm's. You may have to go to 850rpm to get what you need because of economics. Still, it is less noise than other diesels and should be easy to quiet down with a small shed.  

[ Parent ]


Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Farmer on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 09:40:15 AM MST

I plan on buying a Metro 20/2 from John Alvin at http://www.power-co.net He has been extremely helpful to me.  The horsepower rating is at 650 RPM.

A 12 KW head rather than a 10 KW will give me a bit more surge capacity even though it may be a bit larger than the 20/2 can run at full capacity.  Correct??

I had considered a Changfa diesel but decided that I could not stand the noise.  The lighter weight would have been very helpful but I don't plan on moving the generator unless absolutely necessary.

[ Parent ]



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Farmer on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 09:28:21 AM MST

My real question at the heart of it is how much power will I need to run a 220VAC arc welder?  When I buy one it is going to be a heavy duty one, not some light weight consumer model.

On the occasions when I need to run the welder everything else can be shut off.

I mentioned the loads from the house only to communicate that the house loads will be pretty light.  I plan on eventually building either a wind or a hydro system to keep the batteries charged, but that takes time.  In the short term I can run everything off the diesel and have plenty of power with less work.

Because of the altitude I will lose about 21% of the engine's rated horsepower.

Therefore I was thinking of using a 20/2 Listeroid and a 12KW FuKing head.  Is this going to be too much generator and drink me out of house and home?



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by zmule on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 10:16:46 AM MST

If you take 20% off the 20 HP that leaves you with about 16HP at your elevation. You should be able to produce a steady 8KW with that set up. According to the specs on Metro's website, the 20/2 runs at 1050 rpm. It might be fairly noisy at that speed. That same engine running at the 650rpm "quiet" speed is rated at 12HP. You can see the specs here: http://www.metroexporters.com/pages/metex/dieselslow.html  I do not think there is a significant penalty by running a bigger head, just the extra cost of the larger unit. You could probably get by fine with a 10KW unit. I think the rating on the Fu King heads is continuous so a 10KW can surge to 12 or even 15KW without too much trouble. You have to check the spec plate on the welder you plan to purchase and run the equation (V X A = W). I don't think you can simply say: I have a 200 amp welder that uses 220 volts because you would get some rediculous answer like 44KW. I am sure there are folks on this board who know way more about this. For arguments sake I have a big old Lincoln 200 amp AC/DC arc welder that is probably like the one you want to buy. I usually weld at around 90-100 amps and it is on a 15 amp 220V breaker that has never tripped. So it is using less than 3.3KW.

[ Parent ]


Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Farmer on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 10:55:21 AM MST

My 2 HP single phase 115V motor draws 16 amps according to the spec plate.  115V*16amp = 1840 watts continuous.  The starting surge of course is more than that, I don't know how much more.

Your Lincoln welder is the type I intend to purchase.  So lets build in a saftey margin and assume I need 4KW to run a welder.

The Metro 20/2 running at 650 RPM makes 12 HP but when derated 20% for altitude only produces 9.6 HP.  According to the chart at http://www.power-co.net/mighty_yanan_generator.htm  I should run a 5KW head.

If in fact there is not a significant penalty in running a larger head than needed I can run a 10KW head.  That way if I need more power at some point in the future I can, change the pulley on the generator head and run the 20/2 at the full rated speed of 1050 RPM.

The 10KW head would also be good if at some point I moved the generator to my other off grid property at a lower elevation.

Now I understand the reasoning behind why John recommended buying the 20/2 with a 10KW head.  

[ Parent ]



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by zmule on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 12:36:43 PM MST

Exactly, now we are thinking along the same lines. If your 20/2 is rated to run at 1050rpm then slowing it down is just a matter of ordering a set of governer weights from the 12/2 and installing them. Then you have the flexibility to run at higher rpm's later if you like. I plan to keep an extra set of weights and an appropriate sized pulley for the generator so I can change the speed and the output if necessary. You cannot do this with a 12/2 because the flywheels are different for the slower speed. In other words, with Lister types, it is usually OK to slow one down below rated speed but not to speed one up it because the larger diameter flywheels will exceed a safe rim speed and may fail (explode)see this link to know what I am talking about http://engines.rustyiron.com/flywheel/index.html. If you look at some of the pictures of the different types of Listeroids available you will see a different flywheel on the higher speed engines than the slower ones.
The unit you describe should put out a solid continuous 4.5KW and spike much higher. It might just be all you need....and it may just last forever.  

[ Parent ]


Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by John II on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 01:27:22 PM MST

Hi: Something I think needs added to this subject, is there are a lot of differences in welders.

I had a 12 hp China Diesel engine belted to a 8 kw Leroy Sumner (sp) alternator. I had a Sears Craftsman ac (buzz box) welder. While the alternator is one of the 3 best units on the market, as it uses the rotary transformer excition method and is capable of starting and running a 10 hp induction motor, I could not operate my welder. I'm not sure of the peak amperage the welder went too, I think is was 180 amps. In my particular case, I discovered that the output electrode voltage on the welder was 70 volts.

Later on, I went to a 400 amp dc welder which I drive with a 20 hp Kohler twin cylinder gas engine. I can weld with less Hp with this welder because it's electrode voltage is 40 volts. Even at that, If I go to large welding rod, I can make the twin V belt drive squeal and really lug the motor.

There's a world of difference welding with each unit. With the Sears unit, I could pull really nice long arcs. With the DC unit I practically have to burry the rod to get an arc started or to maintain one. However both welders do a beautiful job welding.

So the size of your welder would have a whole lot to do with the size of Diesel engine and generator you would need.

You might want to do some shopping on welders before you purchase your diesel engine and generator. Look for the most energy efficient one you can find, that will still keep you happy with all of your anticipated welding projects. Once you find your welder, you will then be more able to select the proper size engine and generator.

John II



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Bill Kichman on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 08:53:56 PM MST

All the previous posts were on track, from what I gleaned, but you must consider another thing before sizing a genset.  You don't want to run a diesel long term at light loading.  They are happiest when kept at about 80% to 90% full load if possible and like to be run hot, say 180F to 190F.  You might consider doing what I am accomplishing, using 2 smaller units.  I run one at full load presently against the grid at about 90% capacity all day in a cogen fashion.  Make enough heat to heat the house so far, and power all my electric loads.  This is all just part of my debugging period, as the control electronics (Labview and a control PC will provide monitoring, control, and history logging capabilities) are not yet installed.  The second genset is not yet installed either, but will operate the same as the first. I am storing heat in a 275 gallon water filled kerosene tank supported on a 7' high mezzanine in my shop.  Not yet insulated, but it presently takes about 6 hours to heat the tank from 50F to 180F. Should be enough heat for all but the coldest series of days here in PA with just one engine running, and we'll have heat-a-plenty with both running.  

Anyway, back to the thread...you want to avoid "wet stacking" which is a serious affliction when over sizing a diesel.  We see this sometimes in my line of work (consulting professional engineer -electrical) when standby diesel gensets get seriously oversized.  The engine becomes a maintenance pig in that case.  Maybe it's not a consideration in your case, and yes, starting big electrical loads is a serious concern, but I really like the approach I am taking, with the added redundancy and being able to service one genset while another runs.  You can buy 2 12hp single cylinder listers for less than the cost of a twin too.  The generator heads are almost free of you use induction motors as generators also.  They go for about $10 per hp here on the used market. My setup presently puts out 34 amps constantly (Shuts down if I exceed about 37 amps - actually it begins to motor and draw power till it cools down a bit then cycles doing that till you lower the governor setting) and the other genset should give about 28 amps for a total of 62 amps, a serious amount of continuous power - and with both those pairs of flywheels, can start a serious motor with certainty. Just some thoughts for your consideration, there is no totally correct answer, we need of course to fit the solution to match what we have available to work with, our set of skills, time available and budget. Hope this helps.

Now my question, has anybody figured out how to get a reliable engine starter hooked up to one of these things?  If so please tell me!!  You can email me at ebayeveryday at comcast dot net.  Thanks

[ Parent ]



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Farmer on Tue Oct 19, 2004 at 11:07:33 PM MST

Bill,  

What you are proposing is two generators, correct?

The lowest cost solution would be to go with a 6/1 and a 5KW head.  After reading the material at utterpower.com I am inclined to believe that I might get by with a 6/1 with a 5KW head.  Certainly the only load that would be questionable would be a welder.

If at some point that isn't enough I can get a larger generator to run the heavy loads.

Now about using an induction motor as a generator.  Where do I go to learn about doing this.  And how many HP motor do I need to get the same performance I would get from a 5 KW ST head?

Andrew

[ Parent ]



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Bill Kichman on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:23:34 PM MST

Bill,  
>What you are proposing is two generators, correct?

Yes, I feel 2 are much better for the reasons I spoke of in previous post.

>The lowest cost solution would be to go with a 6/1 and a 5KW head.  After reading >the material at utterpower.com I am inclined to believe that I might get by with a >6/1 with a 5KW head.  Certainly the only load that would be questionable would be a >welder.
>If at some point that isn't enough I can get a larger generator to run the heavy >loads.

>Now about using an induction motor as a generator.  Where do I go to learn about >doing this.  And how many HP motor do I need to get the same performance I would >get from a 5 KW ST head?

Search the web for the phrase "Induction motor as generator" or IMAG.  there is a misleading paper out there which explains most of the facts correctly which many folks are referring to, but it has a hand drawn schematic that is dangerous.  It has you using the 3 phases with individual and separate grounded neutrals which is not only illegal and confusing it is downright dangerous.  

A quick run down of the IMAG facts on 2 cases, islanding and utility feedback.

Utility feedback is much easier, just connect the 3 phase generator as for a 3 phase motor (except you don't use the third phase, just ocnnect the 2 phases to the single phase service lines), set the pulley ratio such that at full engine rpm the generator rotates about 5% above its rated nominal rpm ( say, 1850 or so for an 1800 rpm motor) and throw the disconnect once the engine is up to speed.  Watch your electric meter spin happily backwards, that's all there is to it.

Islanding is a little more trick though.  Same as above for pulley ratio, but you don't have excitation regulated by the utility so you have to control things on your own.  Frequency is determined by the speed at which you control the engine.  I recommend something other than the Lister governor, it is quite crude.  I will be using an auto cruise control when I go off-grid.  Voltage on the other hand, is determined by the bank of motor run style caps you apply to the windings, from line to line for each phase. You do this by running the genset up to its proper frequency and speed, then selecting the high end of the voltage (typically about 130v line to neutral) by selecting an optimum capacitor set.  They are placed from line to line.  You don't get the BEST voltage regulation, but plus or minus 10% is normal acceptable limit fo rthe utility so you can do that too.  Another thing you can do is add appropriate capacitors across your large motor loads, connected only when the connected motors operate,  this is industry standard practice to correct power factor (reduce inductive currents), but it would have the added effect of helping keep your voltage swings more tolerable when those big loads come on line.  

One more caveat you need to know: If you seriously overload an induction generator, you won't burn it out, it will simply stop generating.  You still want to avoid this though, as you may lose the residual magnetism needed to make the generator start generating voltage at startup.  The fix is easy but a hassle, you "flash" the windings with 12vdc current for just an instant, it slightly magnetizes the windings and gets you back in business should the thing not come up to voltage. Also you want to start it up with no load of course, same as for any generator.

All that said, islanding with induction generators might be way too much hassle for most people.  But it sure saves lots of generator head cost and is easily replaced/upgraded  if need be and can be made to work just fine with a little extra work.  Also a second generator of this type would simply lock into the first when parallelling, much like for utility mode previously described.  Not sure how this would work with the more traditional field winding controlled genset.

Are you totally confused now?  :-)

BIll Kichman

[ Parent ]



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Farmer on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 06:33:42 AM MST

Spinning my utility meter backwards won't be an option.  The grid won't be there.

I think I will just spend the $ to get a good ST generator head.  At this point in my life I have neither time nor energy to mess around I just need something that works everytime with no hassles.

Sometime in the future I do want to learn more but I can't do it now.

Andrew

[ Parent ]



Re: How many KW generator do I need? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by pops on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 10:02:48 PM MST

I was wondering how your induction motor system was working out.  I am considering purchasing 6/1 Lister and running the meter backward with an induction generator.  Any thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Scott

[ Parent ]



How many KW generator do I need? | 14 comments (14 topical)
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