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Lister Clone Diesel Generator
By zmule, Section Homebrewed Electricity Posted on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 07:24:25 AM MST
Hey Dan, how is your FU-King Diesel Listeroid working?

Hey Dan, how is your FU-King Listeroid working? I have been researching these and working with George and Joel on a project in Florida. I hope to build several of these. The first will be a 25/2 15KW (2 units) and the third will be one like yours with a 6/1 and a 5KW ST head. I also just started looking into the Changfa diesels for a more conventional portable plant, in the 10KW range. I just wanted to inquire with you to see how it was going as I will probably be building these sometime late November. Thanks.
Regards,
Z-Mule

Lister Clone Diesel Generator | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 07:44:53 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Im not sure what you mean by a 25/2...?

Other than minor adjustments and a bit of sand when I got the engine, it's been really good, and I've got quite a few hours on it now. The only problem I've had was with the cheap fuel line they put in between the filter (which is also cheap and should probably be replaced) and the injection pump. I think the diesel 'ate' it... I had to replace that line when it started leaking.

Otherwise though - no complaints. Yesterday I had to start it early in the morning, it was about 25 deg outside (perhaps a bit colder). It took a bit of work... but it did start for me. Installing a glow plug or some other means to heat things up a bit is probably wise for cold climates- high elevation is also working against me here, I suspect in FL you'll have no problems.

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by zmule on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 08:21:34 AM MST
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Thanks for the quick response. 25 degrees? ARRRGH glad I left upstate New York and fled south years ago! A 25/2 means 25HP 2cylinder (sorry I assumed you knew). You get used to the nomenclature as you keep reading about these. Anyway, for your cold-start problem: are you using regular diesel or a bio-blend? Stick to the high-grade diesel in the cold weather or you may have to warm the fuel. I suspect though after reading about quality control issues with these that it may be your injector. Check and make sure your injector is properly atomizing the fuel by removing it, reconnecting it to the fuel line and pointing the tip in a "coffee" can then crank and check the pattern. You probably already know this but for those reading that are unfamiliar with the design, this engine uses a pre-combustion chamber, sometimes called an "energy cell" to super-compress the fuel and get it to ignite. Then the burning mixture sprays into the main combustion area above the piston through a small orifice where the energy is extracted from the fuel slowly and efficiently. If the spray pattern from your injector is "off" it will make starting difficult and it will not run as efficiently as it could. If you have to, you can retro-fit a standard glow plug for those "arctic" mornings into the air intake (close to the head) that will work fine on a lawn tractor battery. Another option would be to use a small amount of either in the breather. BE CAREFUL with that and use a little at a time to see what works. I would rather not have to rely on either because of the potential to damage the engine. Go with the glowplug....
It is becoming clear that the design of the engine is sound but the quality of manufacture is variable and these engines have to be tweaked, like George recommends. For me, this is OK as I love doing this stuff and realize that we could never afford one if it was made here.

Regards,
Z-Mule

[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 08:27:24 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Ive not heard of a 25/2.
Mine is a 6/1, and I know that a 12/2 is also available... which should be quite good for a 10KW head. I think past that.. you get into higher rpm engines, but I'm not sure.

[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by old55olds on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 09:53:52 AM MST
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Be darn careful with either. They will kick back. And fairly rapidly too.
Ken

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by zmule on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 10:51:50 AM MST
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The 25/2 is made by Ashwamegh (AHHSH-WAAAH-MAY)and you can see pictures on Utterpower.com. George and Joel have screened many brands as you well know and they like this one best so far. I do too from the photos it looks nice. It runs at 850rpm. You are right about the rpm thing and I spent many hours reading over specs from Indian manufacturers and noticed a pattern of the same bore and stroke engine having 3HP ratings with different operating RPM's. You can achieve the same thing by changing out the governer weights in your engine. You must be careful here because the higher rpm engines use a smaller diameter flywheel with the same mass. According to John at the old engine shed, the rule of thumb is your flywheel rim speed cannot exceed 60mph. By my calculations, that would be approximately 850rpm on an engine like yours. Some believe 1000rpm is ok for your engine. I really want a slow speed one and was thinking of actually slowing down a 25/2 to 650 for 10KW with low noise and extreme reliablilty. I will have to get these things built first so it will be a while before I get to try some of my hairbrained ideas...Either way it will be a great project.

Regards,
Z-Mule

[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 06:14:41 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Hi Ken -
are you sure?..
I could imagine it might... if you fed it some starting fluid or something (never tried) - but to get one of these past compression you really need to have it spinning nice and fast before you release the compression release, and I'm pretty doubtful it could kick back, there's allready so much energy in the flywheels sending it foward.

[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by 12volt dan (dan12v@hotmail.com) on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 06:23:13 PM MST
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having hand cranked a few diesels myself I can guarrante that it will indeed kick back with either.Also If there was a pre-combustion chamber on that it would already have a glow plug installed.
11 years off the grid and counting

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by 12volt dan (dan12v@hotmail.com) on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 06:23:54 PM MST
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Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by silverbug2 on Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 11:17:26 PM MST
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warning

Do not use either on an engine with glow plugs!

Nothing but bad will come of it!

Either can cause the glow plug to break off in the combustion chamber and say hello to the piston on the up stroke. ouch

[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by zmule on Thu Oct 7th, 2004 at 02:58:52 PM MST
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There is a precombustion chamber in this engine but there is no glow plug. It was designed by the Lister company in 1927 as a cold start "CS" diesel. The small chamber allowed the fuel/air mixture to be super-compressed so it would ignite without the aid of torch-heat or punks. The compression release was a little hand-wheel that changed the size of the chamber. The Lister clone or Listeroid that Dan has uses a simplified system that just holds the exhaust valve open until you get some inertia into the flywheels. If you like, I can post you a cutaway of the original CS head for reference. A pretty cool design. The Lister clone is still an awesome engine and I can't wait to get mine. I would favor the addition of a modern glow plug in the air intake over ether. Ether is so volatile that even with the compression released it could still kick. Who wants that risk? Sorry I originally suggested it.

[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by whatsnext on Thu Oct 7th, 2004 at 08:54:14 PM MST
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Has anyone here tried WD-40 as a diesel starting fluid? I tried it a couple of times when my old Volvo turbo diesel would not start and it worked every time. I'm pretty sure that it comtains fish oil and it's much less volatile than either. A friend said he saw it used commonly for that while in Alaska.
John......

[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by finnsawyer on Thu Oct 7th, 2004 at 09:24:36 PM MST
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I don't buy WD-40. You can't get all the stuff out of the can. Also, I go to extreme lengths to avoid using ether on my diesel tractor. It has a "choke" setting for the injector pump that increases the fuel into the engine. It's good to about 20 degrees. Below that it's time to break out the heaters. Wonder how low temperature the WD-40 is good for?
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by 12volt dan (dan12v@hotmail.com) on Thu Oct 7th, 2004 at 04:56:41 PM MST
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yes I would love to see that cutaway please that design hasn't been used on anything I've seen. the whole idea of the pre-combustion chamber (today) was so the compression could be reduced to around 350 psi instead of the 500 psi or so in a direct inj. this design made it nessasary to have the glow plug since the heat of compression wasn't high enough to ignight the fuel. the glow plugs were pre-heated to start and were kept hot from the ignition cycles

CAV used to have a glow plug in the intake manifold that heated a coil red hot then unseated a ball valve that let in raw fuel from a resivoir. It was used on Ford tractors and worked well. You held the key on preheat till you heard the "pop" then cranked the engine over. I have been able to start new tractors at 40 below with this system and 20 below with a used tractor. perhaps something like that would work, it certanly wasn't high tec. Another option would be the air preheat electric grid used on the powerstroke and cummins 5.9 but that requires a lot of batt.

Being a low tec (and proud of it) board why not do what I do. Put a tray of coals from the fire under the motor,gets my car going in 45 min at 40 below :^)
11 years off the grid and counting

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by zmule on Fri Oct 8th, 2004 at 08:04:33 AM MST
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http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2364/Doc1.doc I am not good at this but I saved the image to a Word file and uploaded it to the link above. Let me know if it works. I have the whole manual in PDF and I am sure I can find a way to send it to you if you want it for a reference but this image tells the story. My Dad's old Oliver 77D has a 6cyl Waukeshau engine. The precombustion chamber (which they called an energy-cell)was set on one side of the head directly opposite the injector on the other side. Fuel would squirt across the combustion chamber into the orifice of the energy cell and ignite. The ignited mixture would then spray out of the little cell into the combustion chamber where it would meet with the remaining fuel being injected and "crash" at the top center of the piston in a recessed area in the head. They said it provided more complete combustion. That was (still is as we still have it)a great and smooth running tractor.
OK, back to your situation. The coals under your engine would work but mind keeps yelling "fire". You must have seen in your junkyard travels a coal fired hot water heater? How about something like that? you could tee it into your thermosiphon, build a little fire in the pot-belly and let it circulate for an hour. Your engine would get nice and warm from the water jacket and should fire up easily and reduce the risk of fire. It would probably extend the engine lonjevity too. What do you think?
Glow plugs are easier though and you could connect it to your car or tractor battery via a home-made "jumper" if you did not want to fool with a seperate battery system.
Regards,
Z-Mule

[ Parent ]

Re: Lister Clone Diesel Generator (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by 12volt dan (dan12v@hotmail.com) on Fri Oct 8th, 2004 at 06:30:47 PM MST
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sorry, didn't work for me. The computer thought it was a virus and killed it. If you could send the file to my e-mail I'd be gratefull.

no worries about fire if you use coals only. there's enough heat that you can be a foot or so below the motor and still warm up fine. I haven't had one in 8 years now and never missed a day of work. the bonus is the oil in the sump is warm and gets to the crank 3 times faster than with a coolant heater saving wear and tear on the motor. you just can't be in a hurry,wait for the heat to do the job and you will be running in due time
11 years off the grid and counting

Lister Clone Diesel Generator | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

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