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crazy idea or...


By dalibor, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 02:17:28 AM MST
ok

there are a few weird ideas in my head recently,but this one could be weirdest. I wonder could be homebrewed electricity used for turning water in oxygen/hydrogen mixture (sorry, i dont know english that much) and in that way used for heating, coocking etc. i was thinking about some sort of tank on where will be implanted + & -  electhrodes, water pipe and somewhere on the top pipe for produced gas for house spreading. could it be done somehow, is it risky operation ( very explodable)? of course, measuring and safety equipment must be included. could be H2/O2 mixture used for that?
yes, you may laugh loud if this is insane idea.
greetings from belgrade
crazy idea or... | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by p0lizei on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 03:21:17 AM MST
(User Info)

The name escapes me, but I saw a company out there who sells a system which does exactly what you're talking about.  I remember finding them while I was doing alternative energy research, if that's any help.

From what I have read, it is exTREMELY dangerous to store H2:O2 together.  You have a stoichiometric mixture that is just itching to explode on the slightest provocation.  My hydrogen storage plans (""""plans"""") have always basically sent that oxygen off into the atmosphere.  

Think of it this way: Propane isn't stored with oxygen in the tank, it's just "pure" propane.  I don't see any reason to do it differently with hydrogen-- it should burn just as well if not better than propane.  

Anyway, I do think that it's a great idea, I'd rather have hydrogen heating than methane heating, absolutely no worries whatsoever about carbon monoxide poisoning, and hell, it probably would not be as dry in the winter with hydrogen.

Storing, to me, would be the most difficult part, and that is because I personally would want safety measure upon safety measure to make sure that it is as safe IF NOT SAFER than using natural gas.

Good luck.



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by dalibor (mdalibor - at - gmail - com) on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 06:34:01 AM MST
(User Info)

ousch, first reply to my braintorturing and a very usefull one, thanks. i am wondering myself right now how the hell i did not think about how this mixture is "accident waiting to happen"?
is it hard to storage hydrogen all alone. i have heard that it is "natural born escaper" becouse it is so lightweighted. where i colud leran smth. abot hydrogen storaging? any other opinnions'

[ Parent ]


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by JeroenH on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 07:50:30 AM MST
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Lots of info here:

http://www.homepower.com/magazine/downloads_hydrogen.cfm

Read this pdf especially: http://www.homepower.com/files/h2homesystem.pdf

To summarize: yes it is possible, but prepare to spend al lot of money and, as another poster also mentioned, use safety measure upon safety measure upon safety measure (mostly flame arrestors). And figure out a way to persuade your insurance company to keep insuring your home.

H2/O2 mixture is dangerous stuff. But is would be cool to have a system like that, you could use it for heating and cooking, but also generate 'on demand' electricity by using a fuel cell. Maybe even run your car?



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by skravlinge on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 08:01:06 AM MST
(User Info)

Never mix it, its probably the last thing you do, if it is more than very little.
It is not easy to store under pressure, not very cheap. If you use it for  heating your home you can find various metals which can hold a lot of hydrogen in a kind of dilution many (hundreds) times its own space,
-- Always find the typos after posting!


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by skravlinge on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 08:20:05 AM MST
(User Info)

Sorry I forgot to put a useful link of this matter
http://www.ectechnic.co.uk/STORE4.htm
-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by p0lizei on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 12:16:36 PM MST
(User Info)

If you can afford it, palladium will absorb 900 times its own volume of hydrogen at room temperature, and when heated (I don't believe it has to be heated to anything difficult to manage) will release that hydrogen.

But again, I say IF you can afford it, as palladium is right up there with platinum as far as price goes.  

Otherwise, research continues on metal hydrides that are capable of absorbing a great amount of hydrogen.  Unfortunately, my impression was that most of these compounds are proprietary, and are still in research and development phase, so good luck finding information about them.  If you DO find some info about specific metal hydrides, be sure to post them on here, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested to know.

As far as containing hydrogen, especially at pressure, yes, that is a difficulty because the H2 molecule is small enough that it will go right through metal.  Another concern is that hydrogen causes certain metals to become very brittle; I don't know which metals this affects, though I'm sure a quick Google search will turn up the requisite information.  I don't think the issue of hydrogen escaping your storage device is too much of a concern as I don't see any reason why you would be doing any long term storage of the gas.

[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by sathigpen on Mon Nov 22nd, 2004 at 11:04:41 AM MST
(User Info)

Yes, I'm attempting to do this -- including rooting through engineering and material science dept's papers: http://sthigpen.freeshell.org/eco-links.html#hydride

google searches usually come out with this one: A 1600 Liter Tritium Hydride Storage Vessel: http://sti.srs.gov/fulltext/ms2001247/ms2001247.html

I'm also interested in furnace designs for actually fabricating hydrides from cheaper metals.

I asked about this at a related talk at Solarfest 2004 (http://www.solarfest.com, http://sthigpen.freeshell.org/solarfest/index.html#hydrogen -- sound file link down) where the speaker described a process of "rolling" cylindrical layers of molten alloy. The University of Vermont does environmental engineering so they are probably a good place to start.

Sam.
http://sthigpen.freeshell.org/unix.html
http://sthigpen.freeshell.org

[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by John II (jjones2(at)inetvisions.net) on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 09:13:11 AM MST
(User Info)

Hello Dalibor:

It's not such a crazy idea. There are low cost simple ways of storing Hydrogen & Oxygen safely in stationary locations. You do it similar to the floating tank method used with methane in India and other countries.

Hydrogen / Oxygen is a very good way to store your Alternative Energy.

This web site has a lot of articles on how to make, store and use hydrogen gas for home use.

http://www.homepower.com/magazine/downloads_hydrogen.cfm

Browns Gas:

If you use a special electrolyzer, you can make h2 / o2 in a mix that is totally safe. It never explodes, if it accidentally gets ignited it implodes and will shrink a steel storage tank up like a prune, and the h2 / o2 returns back to water.

Commercial cutting torches are available from numerous companies that produce and use their own Browns Gas:

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/avail_now/bg.htm

http://www.watertorch.com/buytorch/buybg1.html

http://www.eagle-research.com/

Do A Google search on "Browns Gas" and enjoy the reading.

John II

( USA Missouri )



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by dalibor (mdalibor - at - gmail - com) on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 09:38:23 AM MST
(User Info)

A 2,000 liter per hour machine sells for $12,800.00 retail. A 1,000 liter machine sells for $8,495.00 retail, for the Brown´s gas welding machine based on this idea. it would be very nice to have one, but it will remain as a dream. there are few cheaper similar things. but,I will try to do smth "in the garden", thanks again about t the time You folks spent on this. Thanks for the links, i am planning to follow them all and read. keep in touch right? :-)

[ Parent ]


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by skravlinge on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 11:18:09 AM MST
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I do not think Browns gas can be safe done for a smaller amount of investment than a traditional  highpressure plant.
On a small scale  a metal or alloy hydrid must be the best and safest.
This russian link discuss metalhydrids  the report is in English.
http://isjaee.hydrogen.ru/?pid=275

-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by p0lizei on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 12:02:01 PM MST
(User Info)

"Brown's gas" is atomic hydrogen.  Hydrogen WANTS to be H2 more than it wants to be H2O.  The Germans (and possibly other countries) used this for welding in or around the second world war.  They would strike an arc between two tungsten electrodes and pass a pressurised stream of hydrogen gas through that arc-- the hydrogen molecules (H2) would temporarily dissasociate, and then almost immediately recombine, and THEN burn with the oxygen in the air around it, creating an extremely hot flame.  This was alledgedly able to vapourise carbon.

Oh, here we go, I found my link!

http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/AtomicH/atomicH.html

[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by p0lizei on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 12:06:21 PM MST
(User Info)

I'd also like to see some information regarding this implosion of "Brown's gas."  Honestly, I don't think that's entirely true.  I seem to recall someone trying to use this to run an ICE using this premise, and it failed miserably because of a misunderstanding of the volumes of steam and H2:O2.

[ Parent ]


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by skravlinge on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 11:39:52 AM MST
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Very small hydrogen storage , for cooking for example can reasonable safe be stored if you put a barrel full of  water another slight less diameter upside down and let it work like they stored gas from destilling coal in former days.
The pipe can go to a gas stove.
As O2 is in the air, why spend time to store it for burning?
(You can use this system  with wast organic and /or dropping from chickens too. The ambient temperature must be  35 centigrades and the gas is CH4 and CO.)
-- Always find the typos after posting!


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by ma1bob (ma1bob@hotmail.com) on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 02:46:23 PM MST
(User Info) http://foxinthehenhouse.mystarband.net

I maybe wrong in this. But as far as I know, hydrogen gas can be, and is, stored in regular gas bottles. Like oxygen,acetolene etc.etc.  Mind you I read this on Mother Earth News and I have seen tanks stored in person.

Cheers

Bob
"God Save The Wildebeasts!!"
[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by skravlinge on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 03:07:42 PM MST
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I have done the gas experiment myself but not with hydrogen. You are right it will take time for hydrogen gas to get out and  a gas container it will normally not be dangerous. In some price for transport/storing  calculations they count with this loss of  gas through the container.
-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by skravlinge on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 02:55:56 PM MST
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You do not have to use exclusive metals to hybrid, there are a lot of modest priced metals and alloys, which is better for small scales. Count  price pro stored liter instead of slighter better storing. The fuelcell cars use metalhydrids because it is safe and should be stored for more than short. The leak from the container  will not be, as the hydrid binds stronger, the gas is not "free".

(as posted before)
This russian link discuss metalhydrids  the report is in English.
http://isjaee.hydrogen.ru/?pid=275

-- Always find the typos after posting!



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by p0lizei on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 02:05:24 AM MST
(User Info)

I'm not saying that you have to use some company's own proprietary alloy, I was saying that a lot of the information I found was vague, and probably indicated that the alloys referred to by the sites I read from were proprietary.  If anybody knows of any alloys that will store respectable amount of hydrogen and release said hydrogen within a reasonable temperature range (reasonable being something that can be achieved without negating the benefit of storing the hydrogen in the metal hydride in the first place), then please, by all means, list them, because I and certainly others would be very interested in knowing about them.

That said, I follow linky linky now.

[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by p0lizei on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 06:03:59 AM MST
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Wow, what an "earful" on that site.  It took me quite a while to digest all that.  I found the carbon nanotubes to be the most fascinating possibility as they are not super expensive to come by, and can actually be "homemade" if you know what you're doing (or know somebody at a university who would be willing to make some for you).

[ Parent ]


Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Aelric on Sat Nov 20th, 2004 at 07:02:40 PM MST
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The process of seperating Hydrogen from Water is called electrolysis, you have an anode and a cathode, hydrogen builds around one and oxygen builds around the other.  I think your idea is very good, it would be a great way to heat and cool your house, the trick is to store it safely, or perhaps to get it on demand.  I posted before about Hydrogen Fuel Cells and one person had a very interesting reply, they mentioned aluminum salt water batteries as a way of producing hydrogen quickly, the drawback is that they seem to be very quickly expended as batteries but produce a good amount of power during their time running.   As I understand it the reaction also produces a fair amount of Hydrogen, if this was a large enough ammount then perhaps it could be a method of storing it safely and obtaining it...  One idea I had was to take a number of aluminum cans and submerge them in a salt water solution (aluminum cans because it would be easiest to obtain good quantities of at low prices)  

anyway just a few thoughts.



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by p0lizei on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 06:48:20 AM MST
(User Info)

Aluminium cans are anodised (all aluminium you'll find in common use is going to have that thin layer of oxide) and would not work as simply as dropping some cans in salt water and watching it goooo.  With extra "o"s for emphasis.  Imagine Homer Simpson saying it, it's more funny that way.  

Anyway, you COULD do what you mentioned above, but you would have to be sure to remove the oxide layer in an oxygen free atmosphere, and from there, dunk it in your saltwater solution, without ever allowing the aluminium to come into contact with oxygen.  

[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Tue Nov 23rd, 2004 at 09:27:04 AM MST
(User Info)

I am using LYE/water solution and am not having to remove anything. Cut up a pie pan and it works fine as it was.

Cans are crap so far. But I was only using the bottoms since i had cut off the sides to use as heat sinks. The bottoms worked, yes we did sand some of them a little to expose more aluminum to the mix. I found plastic rings left over after all the aluminum had been eaten away also. I didn't use these much, and got mixed results.

Tops worked too but about the same as bottoms maybe. Now that little pop tab though worked just fine as soon as it was dropped in.

Also I started with a cold solution on that first try and it was cold outside too.
 Next day I got better results when using the pie pan pieces and a warm solution.

Nothing was done to remove any oxides or clean anything other than the little sanding on a few can bottoms, and I decided that was not needed either if I had used a warmer solution to start with I think. still testing though and not sure on anything yet other than it does work, but not sure how well or any type of mixtures or temps etc...

Also I had taken out a used solution that sat over night and was cold, I put in pieces and got little results, warmed the bowl and the process worked fine.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by stop4stuff on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 12:53:09 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.stop4stuff.com

hi,

I have experimented with electrolysis and hydrogen/oxygen production.
In electrolysis, electrons are added to the h20, allowing oxygen and hydrogen to seperate.
The electrons are now stored in the oxygen and hydrogen.
This process uses a lot of electricity. The best I could get was around 48% efficiency. (e.g. 100w elecricity in to get 48w hydrogen / oxygen out).
The electricity stored in hydrogen is released as heat when ignited.
The energy properties of hydrogen can be found here;
http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/education/properties.html

As already mentioned, strong bases (sodium hydroxide = lye or caustic soda) and aluminium react to give off hydrogen, see;
Aluminum, lye, water for hydrogen;
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/11/20/215746/06
and Aluminium / air battery;
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/11/19/55737/387

As storing hydrogen is difficult/expensive, an 'on demand' production system could easily be made...
...to start production a chunk of al is lowered into lye solution, to stop production, the al is lifted out...
...electricity and heat could also be extracted during hydrogen production.
An efficient use of resources? and What would happen to the waste products?

At the end of the day tho, ask the big question surrounding hydrogen...
Is hydrogen an efficient way of storing energy?
Mostly you'll get the answer... No

paul




Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 05:57:10 AM MST
(User Info)

"At the end of the day tho, ask the big question surrounding hydrogen...
Is hydrogen an efficient way of storing energy?
Mostly you'll get the answer... No"

Yep.
All depends how it's looked at really though.
 Considering Hyrdrogen as storing energy may not be efecient in itself, but considering hyrdrogen as a fuel could be. Not all things are equal even though it seems that's whats they try to teach.

 So I would probably not use a wind mill to create hydrogen, then burn that in a gennie to create electric for normal use. Not very efficent at all.

Now on the other hand, if I could use a water tank as a dump load for when my batteries are fully charged and I have tons of wind left over, then it may be effecient compared to just not using the wind at all durring that time.
 Adding more batteries of course is not a solution just because the wind blows harder than normal for 3 days in a row once in a while. So electrically creating hydrogen durring that time and storing it till the wind stops, then using it to run a gennie would be far better and more effiecent than just shutting down the windmills. Also shutting down a windmill does nothing to give you power when the wind does not blow for the next 3 days!
 So in that manner it is more efficient than nothing at all, and what else would you use that extra electric for? Heating water?

Also another point on extra power is if your currant battery bank stores enough power normally then adding more batteries is a waist anyway. You can charge them till they're full, but you won't use it anyway if half as many batteries were already meeting your power needs. So that would be no more effiecent than making Hydrogen.

Using it as a dump load then as a fuel to drive your car. That would be better also if you could do it. In such a case your not really storing the energy as it was in it's first form. No matter how many amps or how many Volts you run into the cylinders of your car the engine is not going to turn!! :)
 It takes a feul which will ignite and expand to move that cyclynder downwards. Not electric.

That's something that used to bug me about science class and such in school. Basically the fact most the teachers always claiming an internal combustion engine runs on heat. Duhh, sorry, I can heat the cylynders and pistons with a Acetolene torch till they melt, and they ain't gonna move till they start to drip!! Now that's HEAT! An engine does not run on heat, heat is created though when the engine runs. Heat is a by product of the burning of the fuel. It is the presure and expansion of that feul that runs the engine, not the heat that was created! If we ever find a fuel that gets cold as it explodes and expands the same engine will work just as well! Of course your cars heater won't :)

"As storing hydrogen is difficult/expensive, an 'on demand' production system could easily be made...
...to start production a chunk of al is lowered into lye solution, to stop production, the al is lifted out...
...electricity and heat could also be extracted during hydrogen production.
An efficient use of resources? and What would happen to the waste products?"

Pretty much what I have in mind with the post about my experments eventaully.
Yes efficient due to the fact we can use garbage that is thrown away daily.
Waste product? Basically an aluminum ore as I understand it, so it could be recycled.
No mining or other difficulties in producing new aluminum from this ore, simply ship back the used stuff to a loction with plenty of free wind/solar/water power (which might otherwise be unused) to refine back into more aluminum again for a new product to be made so we can use the trash for feul :)

OR? How hard can it be to refine it back into aluminum again to recycle at home?
 Think about it. Could it be as basic as running a currant though it to release the oxygen that caused it to oxydize? Probably not. But if so (or not much more) you could put up a few extra windmills leading to a storage tank where you dump your used ore. Next big storm you'd have free fuel sitting waiting to be used again. Random high winds or long periods during storms aren't much good in normal daily use, but for something like this where you don't have to worry about a daily need they could be very usefull to use at random. I mean you use scrap aluminum as neeed on a daily basis, let the ore sit as long as needed. Use it just when ever it's ready again, no rush.
And most likely you would have a nice uniform powderd form to use also.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by p0lizei on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 06:31:22 AM MST
(User Info)

I honestly don't think the aluminium and lye bit would work as well as you'd like it to.  For one thing, it isn't as simple as running some current through alumina and voila, instant aluminium.  Are you going to spend your day refining and smelting aluminium so that you can keep power going to your house?  Or are you going to pay somebody to come and pick up this aluminium waste product?  Either way, I don't see how it would be worth it at all, you would be better off electrolysing your hydrogen via current from your few extra wind generators than you would using that same current to refine aluminium.
----
If you heat the cylinders in an ICE externally, the air will heat up inside the cylinders, and at a certain point yes, that air will expand enough to move the engine.  Now, you would probably have to remove all your belts and pulleys and everything else, but the point is that actually yes, the internal combustion engine does require heat to run.  On the intake stroke, you're sucking in a certain amount of atmospheric air, which is mostly nitrogen.  That nitrogen isn't burning, what it's doing is it's contributing to the overall internal pressure of that cylinder.  Yes, gasoline burning in pure oxygen will cause some expansion, but not nearly as much as if it was burning in air.

"If we ever find a fuel that gets cold as it explodes and expands the same engine will work just as well! Of course your cars heater won't"

Compressed air engines.  When you rapidly expand a pressurised fluid, you cause its temperature to drop.  It's the same premise behind air liquefication plants, they cool and compress and cool and compress and cool and compress air, and then allow that air to expand into a container at very low pressure, and lo and behold, liquid forms of the various gasses that make up the atmosphere.  With a compressed air engine, you're taking compressed air and allowing it to expand very rapidly inside a cylinder, and unless you have a lot of friction between your piston rings and your cylinder walls, that cylinder is going to start cooling down signifigantly.  You'll still need heat to keep it going, because otherwise this thing will drop in its output.  I've thought about this a lot, and I figured that if you had some electronic device (say, an alternator or transformer) that was putting out a signifigant amount of heat, you could use the cylinders as a heatsink.  This would serve to a. protect this electronic device from overheating and b. increase the output from the engine for a given amount of compressed air.  

[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 07:40:50 AM MST
(User Info)

"I honestly don't think the aluminium and lye bit would work as well as you'd like it to.  For one thing, it isn't as simple as running some current through alumina and voila, instant aluminium.  Are you going to spend your day refining and smelting aluminium so that you can keep power going to your house?  Or are you going to pay somebody to come and pick up this aluminium waste product?  Either way, I don't see how it would be worth it at all, you would be better off electrolysing your hydrogen via current from your few extra wind generators than you would using that same current to refine aluminium."

I agree it probably will not be nearly that simple. It's a basic thought that needs to be explored and experimented on though. The lye, aluminum does produce the hydrogen. The aluminum is cheap, lye comes from wood ash (I bought some though ready to use). As far as the refining, I will already have the refined ore basically, and smelting I would normally consider as melting it down to be cast into somethng which I won't need to do. So if that part of it worked with turning it back into aluminum using currant, that is the only part I'd have to do. Pretty sure it's not gonna be quite that simple but untill I create some to test with I won't be able to find out what does happen. As far as smelting does go though, I am building a charcoal maker and foundry to do casting anyway. A few minutes time and a little homemade charcoal (free) and I can make what ever shapes I dedcide work best. Since I am gonna be casting other parts for a real use, then melting down a little extra and pouring into a mold is nothing at all. I will also be blacksmithing with the charcoal I will be making.

No, if this worked well for creating power and as a feul you would not have to pay to have it hauled off anymore than you do for the junk aluminum you made it with. On a large scale system it could be recycled same as cans are now. You might not be paid much for it, but it's probably still worth something, after all how much does it cost to search out and process raw ore in the first place? If the used product is as good a that raw ore alot of cost is eliminated right there as far as making fresh new aluminum.

If it worked you would be far better off with aluminum than electrolising water with the same currant. You can store aluminum with no problems extremly easy for any amount of time at pratically no expense or danger. How would I do that with Hydrogen?
 At anytime next week, month, or year I could then use the aluminum. Untill I need it, just let it pile up basically with no worries. But that's only if it worked and that we don't know so no point worring about that part till we see if the rest works.

"Compressed air engines"
I know it's not what you are talking about but that reminded me, you can modify the engine to run on compressed air. There is no heat involved at the engine to run it. Only heat there is caused by friction of moving parts, that of course does not create any power for the engine, it takes it away instead.
 I once had a toy feul powered car we modded to run off a BB gun type CO2 cartrig. Releasing the CO2 into the engine causes no heat but the car went about as fast as it did on feul. Not as long and as the cartrig lost presure it went slower etc..
 Same engine on fuel was too hot to touch, on CO2 was cold. Heat did not run that engine, presure did. Ya sure somewhere in the world at some time heat was created to put the CO2 into the cartrig and all that nonsense. But that heat did not run that engine!
 As far as expanding air with heat to move a piston. Instead of air use water, instead of heating it, freeze it. The piston should also move then too, and eventually you'll probably warp or crack the cyclinder or block when it freezes solid too. No heat envolved.

My thought is it takes alot of power (energy) to crack an engine block also. How much heat is envolved in sitting a car in the 10 degree weather full of plain water. Leave it long enough and enough energy was created by the freezing water to bust the cast iron block and heads. Ya I know theres alot of heat in 10 degree water, 10 degrees more than 0 degree water and 40 degrees more heat than -30 degree water :)
 In any case it was the lack of heat that created the energy used to bust the engine.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by stop4stuff on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 12:35:10 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.stop4stuff.com

compressed air engine do work from heat...

It is the energy of heat that is used to decompress the air...

That is why an engine running on compressed air will feel cold (it draws heat from it's surroundings to decompress the air).

A stirling engine works because of the energy available from heat and the expansion/contraction properties of hot/cold air...
...heat expands air, the air is moved, the heat disipated and the air contracts...
the expansion and contraction of the air moves a piston (or pistons) as the volume changes moving the air from the heated side to the cooling side.

As far as I know all engines or motors either work because of heat or the electromagnetic properties of copper coils and electricity.

The ICE works because a spark ignites a volatile fuel mix. Gas/petrol (fuel) mixed with air (oxidant) explodes (burns very fast) the resultant hot gases move a piston. Approx 2/3 of this heat energy lost thru the radiator and exhaust.

paul

[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by stop4stuff on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 12:39:00 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.stop4stuff.com

your cracked engine head/block my be due to the expansion properties of water as it freezes


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Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by p0lizei on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 01:35:55 PM MST
(User Info)

Yes, I agree with stop4stuff here... I don't see how there is going to be such a large difference in volume between liquid water and frozen water that it's going to produce power in an engine.  When you said that, the first thing that came to mind was the experiment where you take a soda can from boiling water and dunk it into ice water, and the thing immediately implodes.  So operating on that premise-- starting with gasseous water and ending with ice, I can see how it would operate in principal, but it wouldn't operate for long.  How are you going to get rid of the ice in the cylinder?  You could melt it, but then let's consider another thing here.  How much energy are you using now to heat water to its boiling point, and then "flash freeze" it such that its volume is reduced by a signifigant rate, and then to heat the resultant ice?  And this is going to happen fast enough to run the engine?

Now, I can see your point here, that here we have an example of an engine using cold to do work, but for all intents and purposes, this engine would not run as described.

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Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by Aelric on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 02:48:54 PM MST
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Any engine working on expanding gases does work on heat.  Heat in Chemistry is just considered motion, the more motion (on the atomic level) the more heat (exothermic) and the more it slows down the colder it gets (endothermic) so any expanding gas will be an exothermic reaction even if you are working with say liquid CO2 for example, the fact that it is changing energy state from liquid to a gas means it is getting warmer.  Although pressure does affect this as well (temprature and pressure will affect any chemical reaction) Jupiter is assumed to have a liquid Hydrogen core due to the immense pressure given off by the very very big atmosphere and its own gravititational field.  

But back to the aluminum for hydrogen deal, I agree I think aluminum cans could be readily obtained (if you don't believe me come to my family or my parents house we use aluminum cans very often) and if you are planning on recycling the aluminum can anyway what is the difference in giving them aluminum slag instead?  As expensive as some metals are getting, most notibly copper and iron, I am sure that aluminum will go up too simply for the reason that aluminum is already being used more in commercial applications rather than copper (I work in a fabrication plant for electric meters and a few other electrical enclosures and they are already using aluminum in some applications more frequently due to it being cheaper)  I say all this to come to this point.  I don't think that the aluminum recycling plant is going to be that picky if you bring them aluminum slag verses aluminum can.  You are just going to get more bang for your buck, because rather than only getting the money from recycling the can you are also getting electricity and hydrogen gas for fuel.

[ Parent ]



Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by p0lizei on Sun Nov 21st, 2004 at 03:18:46 PM MST
(User Info)

I very very highly doubt that an aluminium RECYCLER is going to be too thrilled about someone giving them alumina and saying, "Here you are, refine this into aluminium."  They are a recycler, not a refinery, and as I said before, refining aluminium is NOT a simple matter of hooking alumina up to "some" (it's actually a very large amount of) current and watching it go.


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Re: crazy idea or... (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Wed Nov 24th, 2004 at 02:20:15 AM MST
(User Info)

"That is why an engine running on compressed air will feel cold (it draws heat from it's surroundings to decompress the air).

Well I'm not gonna argue the subjuct of engines and air, but the compressed gas/air leaves the container cold, so if any heat is used that is where it is used, not inside the engine. Those cheap compressed gas cans used for air brushes get so cold they form frost and actually will stop working. Sit them in warm water to prevent this and they work ok. Any heat needed to keep them producing presure is needed for the gas at the can, not the engine. I suppose in theory if ANYTHING is considered to be heat then if I spit in one I created heat also, but that does not run the engine as there is no presure created by hot spit.

Any temp air works as long as there is presure, rather it is cold air from a can or hot air from a compresser. The engine either heats or cools based on the temp of the air, it does not move because of it. Take out the spark plug so there is no presure and blow in hot or cold air, nothing happens except the metal changes tempature.
 That's really the last I plan to say on it.

As for the aluminum oxides again. I found my old Grainger catalog from 1995, Medium course glass bead/alum oxide mix, $39 50lb. used for sand blasting. So I was correct that aluminum oxide can be a usable product itself. Rather that is the exact same stuff as produced by LYE/aluminum I don't know though. Aluminum oxide sand papers I haven't looked for, but it's made too.

"I very very highly doubt that an aluminium RECYCLER is going to be too thrilled about someone giving them alumina and saying, "Here you are, refine this into aluminium."  They are a recycler, not a refinery"

They are not a paper mill or a plastic manufacturer either, but the larger places take anything, not just aluminum or copper :)
As long as they can sell it for a profit they will buy it.
 The recycler buys scrap, builds up alot of it, then ships it off elsewhere that is paying for it. That's really all they do. Most recyclers take batteries, but they don't melt down lead. Some of the larger guys may bust up the batteries and seperate the acid, plastic, lead, so they get a better price, but most don't.
 I know one auto junk yard that casts Aluminum ingots from car parts because it brings a better price for them that way. A recycler does anything for a profit if they feel the work envloved is worth the price they get.

 Many recyclers take cars, they crush the tops in, stackem up, ship them off to some place else that will seperate the materials. Eventually the lead goes one place, copper another, aluminum somewhere else. Those recyclers don't do anything other than remove wheels and gas tanks.

So aluminum oxides would just be another place same as anything else. Ship the cans to a smelter, the oxides to a refinery??
 I dought you would get aluminum price for it, which varies a great deal anyway. Car wheels are higher priced than cans for scrap value. Like $0.55lb for wheels, $0.40 for cans. So maybe oxides would be $0.05 or maybe you would have to just give it away. But if it's still usable same as fresh raw ore, then it has the same value without the expense.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



crazy idea or... | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 editorial)
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