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question for flux concerning coils/magnets ratio


By picmacmillan, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 07:13:31 AM MST
how do i get optimum amunts of turns and gauge of magnet wire for the magnets we use?

hi flux...you have helped me quite a bit on this so i was wondering if i can pick your brain one more time because i think i have this but am unsure...i built my first genny but as in all testing it could be alot better ..so,

 i plan to make a new stator with #14 wire(2 strands in each coil..

i have 1" dia neo's and 2x 14" plates for dual rotor.....

blades are 8' to hughes book....12 volt....
my stator mold is i6"dia.

 the two things i have to use are the 8' blades and 14" plates with 12x1" neos on each plate (1/4" plate)
......in my new stator should i use 9 coils for 12 magnets or 12 coils and get more magnets?? or am i just lost...please pick one or two because #3 means you agree with my wife  :)

i would like to use three phase as i think i have that right, and i also would like to just use what i have in parts  as again this is my first genny......the problem with my last stator was i made it from #18 awg 200 turns each...12 coils .there was 1 ohm of resistance in each coil..too much..i would like a little explanation on what the governing factors on what is important on coil size to the magnet size?.bigger is not better,..thanks flux...any help would be appreciated.....pickster

question for flux concerning coils/magnets ratio | 17 comments (17 topical)

Re: question for flux (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 07:57:00 AM MST

You are right to change to 3 phase.

You say the magnets are 1" dia but you don't give the length ot the gap between the magnets.

My immediate thought is that 12 magnets on a 14" disc are spread pretty thin for an 8ft prop.

If you give the magnet length I can see if you have any chance of a reasonable match to a 8ft prop.

I suspect that you ought to be thinking of 16 poles with 12 coils or ecen doubling up on the magnets with 2 concentric rows of 12.

You  can manage with less magnet material and get good results in light winds but if you want the full output of an 8ft prop ind winds of 25mph you need a decent amount of magnet material.

Flux



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Electric Ed on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 08:08:12 AM MST

Hi Pic,
Here is one suggestion, using "overlapped" coils.

I realize your question was addressed to Flux, so I hope you, and he, don't mind this "hijack". I hope he will comment on these suggestions as well, as I value his opinions.

This basic sketch shows eight poles for simplicity, but any even number of poles could be used.

To achieve the thinest possible air-gap, in the actual construction, the coils would be "nested" so that the stator is actually only "one coil thick". In other words, all the overlapping would be done at the rounded ends of the coils, where there is more room.


With regard to coil design, and determining the optimum wire size, the largest that you have space for will have less resistance/losses.

In lieu of a fully engineered design, I suggest the following "trial-and-error" steps.

  1. Determine the voltage that you must have for your specific application.
  2. Build the rotors and the stator coil supporting structure first.
  3. Make and mount one coil, using, let's say #14 wire, with as many turns as you can fit within the physical space that will be available for a single coil.
  4. Connect a variable load to the coil, and spin the rotor at the desired "cut-in" speed, and measure the voltage and current.
  5. Evaluate the voltage at various loadings to determine if you need more turns of smaller wire to increase the voltage, or less turns of larger wire to increase the current, bearing in mind that you will be connecting the other coils in series, parallel, or even series-parallel, with the test coil. If a three phase winding is used, you also have a choice of wye or delta connections.
  6. If you want to evaluate coil heating at this time, run the test setup for at least an hour under load, and check the coil heating.
  7. When you find a wire size/turns combination that works, wind the remaining coils.
EE




Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 08:49:52 AM MST

EE

In theory the overlapping coil idea is a good one and under some conditions it will result in a greater output from a given set of magnets.  It is always used with slotted iron cores, no one would consider the 12 pole 9 coil set up in this case.

It also works best for un-slotted iron cores of the brake drum type. Under most conditions it also works best for single rotor axial designs with a steel laminate backing. The laminate backing supports the winding and conducts the heat away.

With axial windings the lack of space at the inside makes it difficult to use if the magnets result in a large difference in the inside and outside diameters.

For dual rotor designs the benefits are greatest with thin magnets of the wedge shape where the coils need to be thin and where the gap between magnets is about half the magnet width.

The main problem in this case is that the two air gaps take up a lot of what would be useful winding space and also the thin stators are difficult to support and cool.

The main objection to the 2 layer winding for air gap machines is that the overlapping coils add a large amount of idle end winding and increase the resistance.

With slotted machines the reactance is often the limiting factor not the resistance so the end windings are less significant.

With a dual rotor with longer magnets a thicker stator is possible and beyond about 3/8" thick it becomes such a problem to accommodate the end windings on the inside and the increase of resistance becomes such a factor that the single layer winding starts to have a lot of advantage.

Much depends on the skill and patience of the winder at what point the advantage changes and also how much one is prepared to trade convenience for a small saving in magnet material.

I don't think it is possible to say that one method is better than the other, but my feeling is for single rotor use overlapping coils, for dual rotor use rectangular magnets of decent thickness and use a single layer, the un-wound bit becomes quite small with long well spaced magnets.

I have tried most methods over the years and before Neo the single layer winding would have never been considered but with neo it has a lot going for it.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Electric Ed on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 09:10:52 AM MST

Thanks Flux, for the valid observations. You make sense, as usual.

EE

[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by windstuffnow on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 12:45:15 PM MST

   I tend to do things a bit unconventional, or out of the norm.  I really don't see the problem with using overlapped coils in a dual rotor machine.   It is however a bit more work but I still feel the benifits are beyond just the slotted or coil over laminant stators and during tests outperformed the 12/9 layout as well as the 12/18.  I believe I've proved this with my dual rotor project.


   It does a nice 800 watts in a 32 mph wind, a bit more can be seen at http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/dual_rotor_turbine.htm

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by JW on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 01:30:42 PM MST

Since the even number factor is coming up. Id like to submit an observation. If two 9 coil stators are placed on top of each other at 180* out of sync. It will make this intregrated triangle configuration from an edge on veiw. So this means 18 coils are being used in relation to 12 magnets on the opposing plane, right? The total # of magnets should be 24. Whats got me scratching my head here is the fact that there should be 27 coils to make a true 3phase 120* out of sync output wave form. Yet it can be done with 18 coils divided by three? which equals 6... exactly, representing a best possible power factor of two?. Its just amazing to me how this can be alocated for, considering air gap.

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by windstuffnow on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 04:47:11 PM MST

  JW,   Basically the 18 coil arrangement is simpy 2 - 9 coil.  Or 2 full 3 phase machines on one stator. You can actually do this by using 2 layers of 9 without overlapping the coils.  When you series them in You'd go from the top coil to the bottom coil next in series.   Basically 6 coils per phase.  This can be done in a 36 slot stator also.  The overlapping definately skinny's it out a bit but works very well otherwise.
  The reasons I wind my stators as 3 single phase instead of the conventional way, I can save 10 ft of wire over the standard 12/9( 30 ft total).  Although the resistance differences are quite close it does make a difference in the over all output.  When its wired in a slotted silicon stator this way you can almost double the output.
   I really don't believe there is a right way or wrong way, if it works its a success.  Some ways produce more power than others.  We all find what works and improve apon it.

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by windstuffnow on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 07:22:06 PM MST

   Below shows the 12/9 and the 12/18 coil arrangement.  As far as comming out with the "perfect wave form", I guess to me anyway, since I'm using them for wind generators and charging batteries the actual wave form is really a non issue.  If your looking at a constant speed alternator powering specific devices from the unit where the waveform is critical then special care would be needed.  Batteries don't seem to care what they get. ;^)





The diagrams make it fairly plain to see which will do more work, or output in this case. With 12/9 there are places where the magnets are in "limbo" not doing anything.   The 12/18 arrangment there are more coils being effected at any given time leaving less "limbo" and more work being done.  The 12/36 arrangement all the magnets are doing work all the time.  Kind of a good, better, best situation...

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Flux on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 01:32:13 PM MST

Ed

With your thin wedge shaped magnets and your ability as a winder, the overlapped coils pays off. If someone with little experience of winding were to try they would most likely get more resistance as they would probably have longer end windings.

Your aim was I believe to squeeze the maximum out of those magnets with a 8" diameter rotor.

For those who choose the rectangular magnets and are prepared to use a larger rotor I doubt if the overlapped coil winding would manage better results unless you were to go to enormous lengths to save end space.

For someone who is good at hand winding and are prepared to machine formers with slots etc, the actual winding can be as quick as former winding coils and stacking them in place, if you find it easier that's fine.

We all have our preferences, I personally still like overlapping coils with slotless laminations and a radial design, but that becomes a nightmare for anyone with no machining facilities.  Others seem happy with slots and prefer induction motor conversions, there just isn't one perfect way.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by JW on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 11:55:39 AM MST

Hi Electric Ed,

 Looking at the phase voltages at the instant, I cant help but notice that they are 120* out of phase between phases. Wont a standard single layer(resin cast)stator with 9 coils produce this exact waveform with the 24 magnet dual rotor configuration(in wye or delta). When I assume "poles" as magnets, this makes perfect sense(because they are infact an even number). Assuming a dual rotor magnet array with opposing facing n/s magnet index. My question is this, how are the multiplicity of coil circuits(3 where there was 1) combined to avoid 9 phases per 360* revolution with 24 neo mags on a dual rotor configuration. I realize that you could dump all outputs to a diode bridge and phase interference would not occur, but how are the three layered coils per phase combined -in parallel? The "front" veiw flatted schematic appears in series? Is it possible to provide a circular representation of this wiring arrangement, relative to how coils would be physically wired in a cast stator. Just curious.

JW  

[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by JW on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 12:14:21 PM MST

The reason I pose this question is based on the "edge on" view of EE's coil arrangement.

 Here's what I noticed-

 The coils are in more of a triangular formation than layerd stacking.

Im going to represent the coils and magnets as such.

coil#1 = 1
coil#2 = 2
coil#3 = 3
top rotor = N
bottom rotor = S

Most will layer there coils as such-

    N
   1
    2
     3
    S

EE is proposing something like this-

   N
   1
  2 3
   S

With respect from the edge on view.

A standard dual rotor configuration would be like this-

   N
   1
   S

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Electric Ed on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 04:32:17 PM MST

I'm not sure I fully understand your question.

1. "how are the multiplicity of coil circuits(3 where there was 1) combined?"

In my eight-pole example sketch, all four coils of a phase, let's say B phase (black coils), are shown in series for maximum voltage. They could have been connected parallel, or even in series parallel. The voltages induced into all four of them are in phase with each other, because they are all in the same position relative to a magnet pair at all times.

Same with the A (red) phase. At the instant shown, a magnet pair is approaching all coils of the red phase, so the voltage is increasing at that instant.

At that same instant a magnet pair is leaving all coils of the blue phase, so the voltage in all colis of that phase is decreasing.

There are actually only three circuits. They could be connected wye for higher output voltage, or delta for maximum current.

2. "how are the three layered coils per phase combined"?

What I had in mind was only one "layer" in the actual construction, as shown at "B" in the sketch.

Of course, there are other magnet/coil configurations that will produce a three phase output.

EE

[ Parent ]



Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by picmacmillan on Sat Nov 27, 2004 at 05:46:38 PM MST

thank you to all who have helped me here....one thing that i would like to have clarified is when a coil is "wound properly"...does anyone have a picture and some tips?,......i seen someone commented on dan b's coils but i wasn't sure what  i was looking for in it's superiority...thanks...pickster
http://www.frecklefarmloghomes.com
[ Parent ]


Re: coils/magnets ratio (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Flux on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 02:56:20 AM MST

Pic

I am not sure what is worrying you about the coils, I finally waited long enough for one of your pictures to load and your coils look quite sensible in shape for single phase.  If you keep the same hole size and increase the  outsides a bit they ought to be ok for the 3 phase.

If you have 1 ohm per coil and 12 in series, that is miles too high. For an 8ft prop you have to get down to 1 ohm total or less.

You say that you get 12 W at 175 rpm,  but you don't say what the cut in speed is, I presume at 12v.

I still can't find any  length for those magnets, unless they are about 1" long, they are much too small to have any chance. If they were reasonable magnets, with 12 coils of 200 turns in series your cut in ought to be 50rpm or less.

From the pictures I loaded your work including the prop looks good, I think you are on the right track but am doubtful about the magnets, give us the dimensions.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: question for flux concerning coils/magnets rat (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by scoraigwind on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 01:12:19 AM MST

Some general comments about  whether to overlap coils in a dual rotor design.

Marlec http://www.marlec.co.uk in England have been making micro sized (3 foot diameter) wind turbines using ferrite magnets and stators without overlap for twenty years and sellig them very well.  It was less than ten years back they went from single to 3 phase.  So coils that do not overlap are very practical and can be commercial.  Neos make for much smaller alternators but Marlec haven't noticed yet..

The overlapping coils with no iron I see on this forum very often make a very poor job of using the available space in a stator.  The idea of building a slotted plastic former disk that you can drop the coils into is ingenious but it takes up a lot of volume that I would use for copper.  That means the coils are slender and of course easy to overlap, but in the end I am convinced one would get better output (and it would certainly be less work) to fit simple big flat coils in a ratio 3 coils/four magnets or similar, like I do.

The maximum voltage is obtained by a coil-turn that has the same pitch as the magnet pitch (distance between centres).  Smaller coil turns have lower resistance but catch less flux.  If they get smaller than the magnet face I start to doubt if they are a good idea.  Their waveform will be poor because they only work when they are off a magnet face.

If a coil's maximum turn-size is the magnet pitch then the coils fit together to make a single-phase design.  (Coil pitch overall = magnet pitch) I dislike these because they vibrate, and also I like to have some turns that are larger than the optimum size, to occupy more space in the stator with copper (it's an opportunity for more power) and create a multiphase arrangement (less coils than magnets).  3 phase is the easiest to deal with in some ways but you could have 11 phases for 12 magnets for example and this would run very smoothly.

I have two approaches to connecting coils.  One is to connect all the starts together and each finish to a rectifier AC terminal.  This prevents parasitic currents and is very simple but rather intricate.  Lots of diodes and lots of wires.  The other way is to build a series/star 3-phase winding, by connecting every third coil in series to make a phase group.  This means fewer turns in each coil and thicker wire or more wires 'in hand' as you wind.

This stuff is all described in my windmill plans at http://www.scoraigwind.com/axialplans (now also available in French) and in my courses at http://www.scoraigwind.com/buildyo  The next course is in Costa Rica in February.

Have fun!
Hugh Piggott http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk



Re: question for flux concerning coils/magnets rat (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by JW on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 09:31:00 AM MST

I totally agree Hugh,

 Regardless of the number of phases, a diode bridge will convert the AC to DC without any worry of phase canceling losses between coils, this is especially true with a star/wye wiring scheme. While trying to do the same with delta, more attention must be paid to 'pie are squared' with relation to the series/parallel coil connections in the stator, in relation to magnet or rotor diameter solutions, per division. You guys really know your stuff, most impressive...

Having fun

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: question for flux concerning coils/magnets rat (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Rowan Clearwater on Tue Dec 06, 2005 at 01:57:03 PM MST

Hi everyone.
   I'm an engineer newbie to this stuff, but I tend to stand on other people's shoulders when it comes to research. Has anyone here tried a design known as a "Torus"? -Instead of flat coils floating without a core between two rotating plates of wedge Neo's, It uses a wound strip of FeSi Iron - like a tape measure roll between the plates,with the coils wound around them.

   Has anyone tried flux concentrators to focus magnetic flux?
 for a good read and plenty of formulae to chew your way through(270 pages) look at   www.library.tudelft.nl/dissertations/ 2940/f_161816_true_EN.html
In fact their library contains loads of research on magnetism which would help many - please post this link anywhere.

You get gems from plenty of digging!
Nothing worth doing was ever easy!
[ Parent ]



question for flux concerning coils/magnets ratio | 17 comments (17 topical)
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