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load management and related issues


By bob g, Section Controls
Posted on Sun Nov 28th, 2004 at 02:59:35 PM MST
what are you guys doing in reguards to ....

load management or control?

as most are aware trying to make a system large enough to handle
a modern home without concern as to what is on, starting, etc.
leads to the need for a prohibitively large and expensive AE system.

i am working on the design of the system and am incorporating load
management, load shedding, load sharing etc. in an effort to get a more
workable system in a more reasonable (read that economical) size.

so i guess at this point, the question is what things are you guys using
most especially for off grid applications?

bob g

load management and related issues | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Sun Nov 28th, 2004 at 09:45:45 PM MST
(User Info)


How much power are we talking about here. Your not stating any real values. Give us some figures like, amps, volts or watts.

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!


Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by bob g on Sun Nov 28th, 2004 at 10:21:42 PM MST
(User Info)

this is a ground up clean paper approach, whera as i am in the final stages of design of an offgrid home, albeit a small one

propane will be used for standby heat, cooking, backup/standby hot water production and possibly for refridgeration.

the home will be ~1000 sq/ft.

battery bank to be ~1200 amp hour capacity, deep cycle Rolls batteries, possibly more,
configured as a 12volt system.

all lighting to be provided by compact floresent (sp), approx with all on ~150 watts, but seldom will all be on.

refridgeration will likely be a converted chest freezer, to run at ~38F, will be likely 120volt version although i may very well go to the 12vdc version if, not propane.

other common appliances, ie, smallest microwave i can find, small tv, stereo, mixers, etc.

120vac washer and dryer, which will be propane fired

dishwasher, garbage disposal and computer to round out the mix of loads

projected to be less than 4kwatt/hr/day

generation from following sources

1. thermoking refer unit, to povide mass refridgeration for ice house, pto shaft output to provide for

    a. drive for induction generator, 1200 rpm, 208/120 at 40/80 amps peak

    b. drive for 2 prestolite 140amp/12 alternators, for max output of 280amps

    c. cogeneration, by reclaiming heat from the thermoking unit, diesel engine water
       jacket, and by heat exchanger on exhaust outlet for space heating and for  
       domestic hot water production.

2. Single cylinder diesel generator, driving 1-2 additional prestolite 140amp alt's

    a. to provide top off charging and equalization charging of the battery banks,      
       will be run when ice production isn't needed or high heat loads aren't needed

3. wind generation capacity of around 1 kwatt, in a catagory 3 to 4 area

    a. probably to be used as additional capacity, and

    b. topping off and equalization charging of batteries, or

    c. when need for heat or hot water is low, and wind power is high

4. Solar panel, to be added later in an amount that will fill any gaps in production,
   or when solar makes better sense.

Currently my plan is to schedule loads as much as is feasible, ie.

   1. run washer and dryer only when the induction generator is in operation, or when wind conditions or backup generator makes more economical sense.

   2. use a load diverter relay panel with timer, to drop out the refridgerator when,

      a. the microwave in use,or

      b. the dishwasher is in use, or

      c. garbage disposal is in use, or

      d. any other kitchen appliance is needed

note this is the kitchen circuit, and will be powered by a single 1500 watt mod/sine, 12vdc input inverter.

   3. all house lighting to be powered by a single inverter, that is rated very close to the anticipated load, soas to be as efficient as possible.

   4. all entertainment, ie. tv, stereo, computer to share seperate inverter matched
      to anticipated load.

   5. exhaust fan for the bathroom, and the kitchen to be provided by seperate  
      inverter also matched to load.

it is both planned and anticipated that the thermoking cogenerator will be run approx 2 hours per day, one hour in the morning and one hour in the evening. during the fall,winter and spring months, when the wasted heat is of greatest use.

the backup generator will be run as needed to top off and equalize the batteries during the same months and as needed in the summer months.

hopefully this gives a better overview of the project and its needs.

more questions or idea's are solicited

bob g



Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by picmacmillan (rmacmill@sympatico.ca) on Mon Nov 29th, 2004 at 07:24:11 AM MST
(User Info) http:// www.frecklefarmloghomes.com

hi bob........wind generators here have put out 1kw for sure...check out the photo's of the 10' machines and bigger.......most folks here have started off with hugh piggot's book and it has step by step instructions on how to build your own..it is a very good book and is indespensible in this area...once you have the basic concepts you are ready to go at it...what is nice is that alot of folks have alreay built what you are looking for so, if you followed there diary here, you could sort of emmulate what they have done successfully..you can also buy the book,and the products you need here such as magnets and wire etc....hope this helps some, welcome to otherpower website.....lots of fun to be had here.....pickster
http://www.frecklefarmloghomes.com
[ Parent ]


Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by bob g on Mon Nov 29th, 2004 at 04:44:02 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks pickster

i have been here off and on for the last few years, and am aware of all the work
and directions folks have taken with their windpower endevours

what i am looking for is application

what kind of load sharing, shedding systems are folks using to get the most out of their systems, that is what i would like to see

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by robl (rob_linschoten@telusDOTnet) on Mon Nov 29th, 2004 at 02:59:19 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Bob

Your overall plan looks pretty good. I started with wind (1 KW Dunlite) but now use a combination of solar (800W) and Hydro (300W) with a Honda 5KW gasoline genset as backup. Two 2800W Outback inverters in parallel (one sleeping 90% of the time) power everything except my welder.
Average consumption year-round is approx. 3.3KWH per day for a 1600 sq foot house with most of the same loads as you described (including the fridge). Hot water is via solar in the summer,wood-stove coils in the winter and off the hydro during surplus periods.

Good luck.

Rob

[ Parent ]



Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by bob g on Mon Nov 29th, 2004 at 04:41:23 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks Rob

i think to overall system is pretty well planned out at this stage, i expect to have to do some tailoring to get it up to peak efficiency, but i think i have enough redundancy to cover the forseen problems

still would like to see what others are doing for load scheduling, shifting and control

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by robl (rob_linschoten@telusDOTnet) on Wed Dec 1st, 2004 at 11:31:13 AM MST
(User Info)

With a properly-sized battery/inverter system and power source there is no need to worry much about load-shedding technologies with the loads you list. The wattage required for a sophisticated 24/7 load management system will eventually cancel out any savings at the front-end. Allow a couple of watts for the various control relays and voltage/current sensors, 15 to 20 watts for the management system (using led indicators)and another (intermittent)20 if you are using a LCD screen. It adds up pretty quickly. This would be vs a sine-wave inverter system on search-mode that could sustain 5 to 6 KW continuously as required and peak to more than twice that. I measure 7 to 15 watts 24/7 (two inverters, solar/hydro charger, remote control/monitor, network hub, several voltage meters)to keep my system operational.

Rob


[ Parent ]



Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 10:24:59 AM MST
(User Info)

What I am wondering is will it be more effeceint to run more inverters matched to the loads than just using one or two larger ones? I would think 1 larger inverter would use less power than 3 or 4 smaller ones running all at once. Less fans runing to cool the inverters, less inverters in stanby/sleep modes or seeking, still using some power while not in use. Other things like that.

 Sometimes there are other reasons to run extra invertors that aren't obvious too. Like I plan to wire the daughters room on one inverter seperate from the rest of the house, then when she leaves on the lights and stereo I can flip a switch and shut off the whole room! Or I might give her her own battery bank and when it goes dead too bad, she'll learn to turn things off when not being used. She is getting better.

But otherwise I thought a 5k inverter was better than several smaller ones. I too am in the planning and building stage on many things here. Including my mobile tool room/truck which will have it's own setup for power and supply the house too at times.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: load management and related issues (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by srnoth on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 05:02:47 PM MST
(User Info)

Hey guys,

That problem with several small inverters or one big one probably has no definate answer. When I saw some 400W inverters for $20, I bought two right away. Add those to my other inverters, I can say I have 1.2Kw 120VAC available to me. Only problem, is I can't power a 600W fridge in now can I? Or a 800W power tool? Oh well.

So the point is, several small inverters can be used to power several circuits, but you will never be able to draw upon all that power for one load. But it does mean that if their is a problem with one part of the system, then only that part goes down. I have also heard on this board that inverters are much more efficient at about 80% their max load, so running a 5kw invertert @ 400w is not efficient.

So I guess its up to you to decide, which is more important.

Cheers,
Stephen.

[ Parent ]



load management and related issues | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial)
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