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PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT


By CG, Section Wind
Posted on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 03:02:17 AM MST
 

Does anyone have any views on PTTs. The only example of this type of wind turbine that I know of is the Andreau 100 kw machine built by Enfield Cables in the UK in the mid 1950s. The reason I  ask is that I see that a Hungarian company has resurrected this type of machine and  believes that it can improve on the poor performance attained by the Andreau.

I have coined the name PTT just to give this type of wind turbine a category name, there must be other ways of using air to transmit the energy from the blades to the generator. For example, could a wind pump be used to pump a fluid (air or water) backwards and forwards through a Wells Turbine, much like an oscillating water column is used on a wave machine? Or if you had a couple of rotary air vents or chimney cowls handy, could you put them at one end of a duct and by putting a hair dryer at the other end trickle charge a battery?

By typing in Andreau wind turbine in a search engine it can be seen by the sparse results that PTTs have been discarded, but should this be so?

PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by baggo (baggo@copperstream.co.uk) on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 03:19:06 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk

I can see some advantages in being able to have the generator remote from the blades i.e. it could be mounted on the ground at the base of the tower for easy access. I would imagine it would be possible to use some sort of hydraulic drive with the pump driven directly by the blades and the motor driving the generator. There would be problems running the flow and return pipes up the tower as they would need to be flexible and able to turn with the blades. It may be possible to arrange some sort of rotary joint at the top of the tower to cater for this. Don't know how efficient these hydraulic drives are but they are used extensively in machinery and vehicles mainly due to their very compact size. As is often mentioned here, the wind is free so efficiency is perhaps not a big issue.

John



Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by baggo (baggo@copperstream.co.uk) on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 03:48:54 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk

Just found this which may be of interest. It does actually mention wind generator applications:

http://www.fpweb.com/archive/July_03_ia.html

John

[ Parent ]



Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Wed Dec 1st, 2004 at 04:18:20 PM MST
(User Info)

this is another variation on the same theme but a bit easier  for  the likes of us, me anyway.

bob golding

[ Parent ]



Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by nack on Wed Dec 1st, 2004 at 03:16:19 AM MST
(User Info)

Flex hoses would be bad if no active yaw control.  Better that you transfer the fluid through a passage in a shaft that exits to a reduced diameter land with sealing rings at both ends of it.  Look at an exploded diagram of an automatic transmission if my description doesn't make sense.

[ Parent ]


Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by skravlinge on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 04:19:42 AM MST
(User Info)

I have never seen a system which not will loose power due to friction heat. Some system loose up to 50%. Maybe its possible to construct a better, but I belive it will be hard to compete with good gears or direct drive, both in economic of building and run.
-- Always find the typos after posting!


Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 08:09:05 AM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

I think it would be easier to mount a rear Truck Axle with the differential, at the top of the tower, and send the power down the tower with a drive shaft type thing.

http://www.cansolair.com/wimdphotos/large_top%20(1).jpg

Here is a picture of an axle and differential with two sets of blades, one on each side where the wheels mount on.

)}=- W o o f -={(



Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 08:16:05 AM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

Sorry I inserted the picture abouve incorrectly
here is the truck axle differential picture



From this site
http://www.cansolair.com/wind.html

)}=- W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]



"Energy Avoidance Fee"? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 09:35:52 AM MST
(User Info)

Interesting site.

A side-issue:  He claims that "any utility in North America" will give you a "check called an 'energy avoidance fee'" at the "diesel rate" for power you feed them generated from a renewable resource (solar, wind, water).

I've done a google search on "energy avoidance fee" and got ONE hit - his site.  (First time ever I got a single hit - of course this post will break it.  B-)  )

Has anybody else heard of this - perhaps under a slightly different name?  (The last I heard, the best deal you could get without a special contract was net metering.  But even for that I had to ask - the utility hadn't updated their on-web info from the previous limited-number-of-customers, jump-through-expensive-hoops mode of getting net metering.)

[ Parent ]



Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by skravlinge on Tue Nov 30th, 2004 at 09:20:56 AM MST
(User Info)

You will have a gear as well using a car-axle, som are 1 to 40.
-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]


Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by nack on Wed Dec 1st, 2004 at 03:06:00 AM MST
(User Info)

40:1 won't happen in a car differential.  They typically range from around 2.3:1 to around 5.38:1.  The ones with the least reduction are generally found in big, sluggish sedans; the ones with more reduction are typically found in the smaller engine cars, trucks, and performance applications.  Rear ends are HEAVY so the tower will probably need to be at least as strong as if it had the genny perched on top.  They also have friction losses, which might be minimized by loosening up the ring gear preload.  On the bright side, the parking brake could be useful for emergency shutdown and since you are running the gear reduction backwards you'd get much higher shaft speed that prop speed.  Could be handy for really big slow props, for anything small the extra tower and driveshaft costs might not be worth it.

[ Parent ]


Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by skravlinge on Wed Dec 1st, 2004 at 04:08:51 AM MST
(User Info)

I have seen mills in India which use a car axis, they put it  rather to gear getting  slow turns, it was not for generating power, more as an ordinary mill, or a kind of bucket pump.
I wonder what will be used for real heavy mills like multimega, will not the tower be to heavy? I think we will se mills with the load coming down in some way.
-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]


Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by CG on Wed Dec 1st, 2004 at 02:56:40 AM MST
(User Info)

The comments have sort of drifted off course,I should not have put the bit about a wind pump working a Wells Turbine. I wonder if anyone has bothered to find out how the Andreau wind turbine worked? I have the feeling that the Andreau wind turbine is not known to users, which is understandable as it was built 50 years ago. The e4engineering.com article gives some idea and it will be almost top of the list of any search of the Andreau wind turbine.



Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by baggo (baggo@copperstream.co.uk) on Wed Dec 1st, 2004 at 10:19:51 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk

Sorry CG, should have done some homework first! My fault for jumping to the wrong conclusion. Quite an interesting idea though which I am sure could be improved on. Would make an interesting project and probably not too difficult to build. All sorts of variations spring to mind!

John

[ Parent ]



Re: PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by piolenc on Fri May 25th, 2007 at 04:19:18 AM MST
(User Info)

Sorry to barge in so late; I blundered into this discussion while searching for my own work on the Andreau turbine. I knew I had posted it somewhere...here, in fact:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home/files/Enfield-Andreau%20System/

I got intrigued by this system when I read about it in Dr. Bruno Eck's book on Fans. Unfortunately, although he mentioned the location of the experimental model's first erection, he did not mention the name of the inventor and gave no reference, so for some time I could go no further. Then I happened to pick up the Wind Power volume of the UN proceedings on New Sources of Energy and there it was.

Thus stimulated, I began to analyze the system. I completely neglected parasitic losses because I was only interested in induced losses, that is losses inherent in this type of system - one in which the wind turbine also acts as a centrifugal inducer. The problem, in short, is that minimum momentum loss in the air exhausted from the blades corresponds to the point of zero power output; the details are in my worksheet in the directory mentioned above, or ask and I will email it to you direct.

Depending on the orientation of the exit nozzles on the turbine-blade tips, what I call pneumatic efficiency reaches a maximum of 73% with the nozzles pointing anti-spinward, and 30% with radial exit of the induced air. This efficiency can be regarded as the percentage of the Betz limit that could be extracted with NO PARASITIC LOSSES. As others have already commented, parasitic losses can reasonably be expected to be high in this kind of rig.

Even so, it has one sterling quality lacking in every other type of turbine - namely that it is self-braking and, within generous limits, self-regulating even with fixed output nozzles. If the output nozzles can be re-oriented, say by a flyweight, from tangential to radial, the braking effect is enormous. This would be a great advantage in an area where the wind is strong and gusty, especially one where the turbogenerator set must operate unattended. Antarctica and mountain-peak communication relay sites come to mind.

Best to all,
Marc de Piolenc
Iligan City, Philippines



PNEUMATIC TRANSMISSION TURBINE PTT | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)
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