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selling electricity
By steveawitt, Section Hydro Posted on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 04:13:27 PM MST
how do you calculate income from a hydro operation?

Im looking at buying a hydro power plant in N. carolina, its set up on an old power plant site.It has a 33 ft. water wheel and a 250 kwa gen. does anyone know how to calculate the potential income from such an operation??? thanks steve

selling electricity | 10 comments (10 topical)

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by finnsawyer on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 09:32:14 AM MST

Hire an engineer to evaluate the operation. There are a number of issues that go beyond the supposed output of the unit. Check maintenance records. Are you headed for a large outlay for repairs? Is there a dam involved? What's its condition? How about environmental regs? If you shut the unit down, even for one hour, must you then leave it down? What about demolition costs, if you abandon it? What about potential liabilities?
GeoM

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by steveawitt on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 01:42:01 PM MST

hi thanks for your comments, the situation is that an engneer (81 years old )
has built a house on an old powerstation site in the mountains, he has all the water rights,repaired the dam and waterpipe that brings the water to the house, he has built into his 4 story house a 33 ft water wheel ( it is a site to behold )he also has a 250 kwa gen in place.
he has about 25% more work to do before it is operational.so now he is trying to sell the whole thing, and I have been trying to determine the potential income before I buy. Iv been on the internet for three days trying to get some info on this subject, but there just doesnt seem to be anyone out there doing this type of thing.
any sujestions thanks steve

[ Parent ]

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by finnsawyer on Mon Dec 20, 2004 at 12:22:01 PM MST

Now you make me wonder about flooding potential. Assuming he's putting out 220 volts ac you need the grid tie in. Seems to me I've recently seen some postings on this site that deal with this. Your water wheel powered generator needs to follow the system 60 cycle. Speed is a factor. Remember also, the power company will pay you wholesale and charge you retail. I'd say you should talk to the power company engineers. Anyway do some digging here. Go back a few months.
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by sh123469 on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 09:50:42 AM MST

First check to see if there are any green energy programs available from the power company in the area. Check to see if there are any net meetering laws in effect.

You didn't specify the output voltage of the gen.

If my figures are correct, and the kwa is meant to be kva, 240v output is a little over 1041 watts or you will get 24kwh per day. Not shabby at all. Would just meet my current useage around here. You will also have to have some way to synchronize with the grid to be able to feed power.

Someone please let me know if I calculated this incorrectly. Just my 'gut' feeling is that you can get lots more power than this from a wheel this size unless it is a very low flow. If my calcs are in error, please post a correction so that I may learn from my mistake.

If there is a green power or net metering program, you should be able to get the power purchase figures from the power company. Otherwise, you will have to set yourself up as a small power producing company to sell power to them (at much lower than consumer rates) and go through all the regulatory hassles associated.

I am in SC and although I don't have any viable means to produce much, if any, excess power here, I am in an area without net metering or any green power programs (Greenville-Spartanburg). I have checked a little and the only way other than just feeding power and running the meter backwards, is to set myself up as a power company. Any drastic change in consumption, or certainly a negative reading, will bring someone to inspect the situation.

I paid 8¢ per kwh on my last power bill. If they bought at the same rate, and my calculations aren't faulty, you aren't going to get rich, it's about $2.00 per day at 24kwh per day.

Steve

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by steveawitt on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 01:31:05 PM MST

thanks for the input, I believe that a 250kwa gen will produce about 200 kw,
200 kw x 24 hours = 4800 kwhrs.in north carolina there is green tag incentives,
when you speak of net meatering, I believe that the power co. will buy power back at the retail rate only for the amount of power you use, then any kwh beyond that they will only pay whole sale rates. thanks steve

[ Parent ]

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Electric Ed on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 12:52:25 PM MST

A 250 KVA generator, assuming a load power factor of 80%, would put out 200 KW at full load, providing the prime mover (the water wheel) can deliver that much power.

That's 4800 kwhr per 24 hour day, by my reckoning.

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by steveawitt on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 01:23:22 PM MST

thanks for the info, do you know how I can determine income for the 4800 kwh's??
thanks steve

[ Parent ]

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by mlz on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 01:45:54 PM MST

If you were to sell all of it, you would have to find out what the local utilities defered cost is. This can vary state to state and month to month. As far as income goes, you will end up putting more in than you get out in all likelyhood. Also, remember many states have limitations one how much you can sell beyond usage. I would get in touch of whoever manages the netmetering area of your utility, as that's the only way your going to be able to find out. Unless someone else here is in the same location.

Where I live it can change between the counties and even if your in an annexed area of a city. Do lots of research and get EVERYTHING in writing, lots of times they say one thing, and their co-gen or netmetering agreements say something else.

If this is for income, you need an attourney as well.

[ Parent ]

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by jacquesm on Sun Dec 19, 2004 at 02:05:29 PM MST

Hey Steve,

I've been looking at a similar thing (an old no longer in service small hydro plant) a while ago, toying with the idea, not really ready to buy, but I did learn a whole lot.

A few things strike me on reading your story:

this thing has never run before

it might come apart in the first five minutes because it's essentially untried

it will take quite a bit of work to get that thing approved for grid connection if that wasn't designed into the original plan

utilities can make your life hell

If I were you and you want to go forward with this I'd strongly advise you to place the purchasing sum in trust until those conditions have been met, otherwise you could be buying a lemon, unless the amount involved is so low that it does not matter...

All the other points made here about environmental issues and so on are also very valid.

best regards,

Jacques Mattheij
www.greenbits.com

Re: selling electricity (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by skravlinge on Mon Dec 27, 2004 at 05:02:38 AM MST

First check all the federal or local laws and rules, Check how you can insurance for everything whats can go wrong. Is there a user who can buy all the power for a longer period, it may be easier to calculate the income. I think it is a business for someone like to take some risks.
-- Always find the typos after posting!

selling electricity | 10 comments (10 topical)

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