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Wire Core Stator Experiment


By bill541, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sun Feb 22, 2004 at 08:40:24 PM MST
Small axial generator with wire cores.

This is a continuation of a previous posting http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/2/1/0449/36712 where I build on the idea of using a core made from steel wire. The stator is built for a single 4.5" diameter magnet rotor. There are 16 small Neo magnets that are 0.5" diameter, 0.125" thick. The idea was to make a stator with 16 coils to maximize the cogging effects. This way it would be easy to tell the effects of the steel wire cores as I changed their shape.

The first picture shows the particleboard form used to hold the U-shaped pieces of steel wire. The wire used was plastic coated gardeners wire. Not the best to use for a full size stator, but fine for these tests. The core diameters are 0.375" and 14 wires would fit nicely into each hole. I used zip-ties to hold the wires on the opposite side.

A 4.5" diameter piece of plywood was used as a base and fiberglass resin poured. The previous form holding the wires was then inverted and placed into the resin. This holds the wire cores in place as the resin cures. Then I removed the particleboard form and it is ready for the next step.

Sixteen coils were then wound from #28 AWG magnet wire. There are 265 turns per coil. The coils were then placed over the cores. I cheated and used hot glue to hold the windings in place as I removed them from the winding form.

Again fiberglass resin was used to encapsulate the coils. All the wires were dressed out the back so I could easily change the wiring. Looks kind of like a birthday cake!

I use a motor from a ceiling fan to turn the magnet rotor. This motor runs at 480 RPM with no load. This picture is with the wire cores un-cut and coming straight out of the coils. This set up yielded an open circuit voltage of 20 with all 16 coils wired in series (480 RPM). Cogging, as expected, was quite severe. I use an X-Y axis drill press vise to hold the stator so I can change the alignment and spacing.

By the way, it might be fun to use a ceiling fan motor as the basis for a generator for those interested in motor conversions.

Next I folded the ends of the wire cores over to form a "T". This made it possible to form the slots I was after. Once again the output was 20 volts open circuit. Cogging now was very mild by comparison. If fact, there are now 32 cogging points instead of the original 16. When the motor is stopped, the magnets will come to rest right over a coil, or in between two coils.

Since I used very small wire (28AWG), the output was only 1.2 Watts at 465 RPM. Total series coil resistance was a whopping 24 Ohms. It probably would have been better to shoot for a lower voltage and use 20 AWG wire even for this small generator.

One drawback of folding the core wires over is distortion on the waveform as shown in the picture above. It makes it look like a couple of coils were out of phase, but this is not the case. For those interested the vertical resolution was set to 5V per division, horizontal 2mS per division.

I think if had used varnished smaller diameter steel wire (to pack more steel into the core) and larger coil wire, the output may have been able to get up to 5 watts or so. I'm not sure how much power can be had from 16 small neodymium magnets. Not too sure what I proved here, other than it can be done and it does work...

-Bill-

Wire Core Stator Experiment | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#1)
by iFred on Sun Feb 22, 2004 at 10:02:01 PM MST


Hi Bill
Well that's the first really original design I have seen in a long long time. Congratulations on breaking into the cored stator arena with a new concept generator, your on to something here! After looking at your design and specs I noticed a couple of things that you could do to pick up that output.  
  1.     You say that you bend the core pieces 90 deg, and left a short leg.. Cut it off straight with the top of your coil. Get it as close to the coil as possible, reduce your air gap! Get rid of the bent leg.
  2.     With the amount of wire you have (in the coil) the output voltage should be much much higher! You have cancellation effects occurring. Start with a single coil and a voltmeter, read the output value, then connect another coil in series, is the voltage higher or lower? Then proceed to go through each one like this in series.
  3.     It appears that your reading the voltage as AC, what you want to do is forget the scope and ac output, its distorted and will be... Hookup the output to a full wave bridge rectifier with a 100uf 50vdc or so capacitor after the rectifier on the DC side.. This will give you your true output potential.
Hope to see some more interesting results and data. " your on the right track!", keep it up!

Fred

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#4)
by bill541 on Mon Feb 23, 2004 at 01:07:03 PM MST

Thank-you for your comments,

The magnets I am using are 1/2" diameter, 1/8" thick (Wonder Magnet Item # 0032).

I have wound numerous coils for this rotor from 60 turns to over 400 turns and the voltage at 260 turns runs at about 1.25V per coil at around 460 RPM.

The wave distortion appears on all 16 coils when viewed on a scope one at a time. So I don't think it is a phasing or cancellation issue with the series wiring.

I use AC RMS measurements and the scope to better see and understand what is going on. By using a full wave bridge and capacitive filter, the rectified output will be approx. 1.414 X the AC RMS voltage under a no load condition. This voltage would be misleading unless under a load. Then too you have the voltage drop across the bridge itself. For me it is better to measure the AC components during testing.

-Bill-

[ Parent ]



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#2)
by drdongle on Mon Feb 23, 2004 at 05:50:41 AM MST

I suspect that the flattening of the wave for is due to magnetic saturation of the Iron wire cores. This is similar to what happens with square waves in a transformer.
I think this could be improved with a different kind of wire, perhaps a silicon steal composit.
Otherwise a very interisting experiment.
Dr.D
Carpe Vigor, Dr.D


Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#7)
by bill541 on Mon Feb 23, 2004 at 05:28:13 PM MST

Now that I think about it, the flattening of the peaks is right when the magnet is centered over the coil. I think what is happening is that the flux through the core is weaker due to the folded wire intersection at the very center of the coil. Pointing the wires straight at the magnet will probably fix the wave form.

I guess the choice is, do we want more cogging or more voltage at the peaks?

Perhaps a stator with 2 times the number of oval shaped coils that fit the same area would be a better approach to solve both issues. If we divide the cogging positions up enough, maybe they will go away! Ha! Ha!

-Bill-

[ Parent ]



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#3)
by DanB on Mon Feb 23, 2004 at 07:54:28 AM MST

Thanks for sharing Bill!!  Very neat.

What size magnets are you using? - I wonder because dr dongle suggested the cores are saturated which is interesting, it would make one think the magnets must be kind of large.

You said: "Since I used very small wire (28AWG), the output was only 1.2 Watts at 465 RPM."

But would wire size affect wattage?  Resistance would go up with smaller wire, but so would voltage, so I would think that overall wattage into a matched load for any given wire size (so long as the coil weighed the same amount) would be the same...
is that true, or am I misunderstanding something?



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#5)
by bill541 on Mon Feb 23, 2004 at 01:25:01 PM MST

Thanks Dan,

You are correct that if the load was impedanced matched to the generator, maximum power would be produced. So higher voltage, lower current has the same power potential as a lower voltage higher current.

As it is right now, my coil losses are very high due to the wire resistance when trying to do something useful with the small current available. The short circuit current is only 1/2 Amp, so the windings make a good heater!

-Bill-

[ Parent ]



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#6)
by monte350c on Mon Feb 23, 2004 at 03:56:35 PM MST

Hi Bill,

I've been following your experiments with great interest!

I think if you can get to the bottom of why the tops and bottoms of the sine wave are being lopped off there would be some real mileage in this approach. It's odd , looks like the peak is actually reversing for a split second.

Since you already have the rotor with the magnets on it, it would be interesting to make just 1 coil like the ones already in the stator, and try running it by itself as an air core in a fixture at the same test speeds as the cored stator for comparison.

Other possible variations to try might include a coil with a few wraps of thin steel in the middle, a coil co-wound with a bit of insulated iron wire, and a coil similar to the ones you were doing before with a steel core. Maybe even a single coil sitting in a lamination pack with two slots in it...

Now you've got the rotor and a pretty nice looking test fixture perhaps the one at a time coil variation tests wouldn't be too odious to do...

Look forward to your continuing tests!

Ted.



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#9)
by bill541 on Wed Feb 25, 2004 at 09:11:50 AM MST

Hi Ted,

I was going to make just two coils with the wire core joining them, but I got so caught up in the whole assembly process that I just built the whole thing to see what it would do. Now that this is out of my system, I think I will go back and play with 2 coils at a time to find the best combination.

I had tried coils with the iron dispersed through the coil. For me, this did not work very well at all.

Have you run any more tests in this realm?

-Bill-

[ Parent ]



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#12)
by monte350c on Thu Feb 26, 2004 at 08:32:29 PM MST

Hi Bill,

Here's a thought - if the folded wire is causing that blip in the sine wave, maybe try the same approach as you have just used, but try to insert about 25 to 30 percent more wires in each hole. Then bend over the same number of wires as in this stator, but leave the extra 25 or 30 percent wires unbent, and clip them off even so they're pointing up at the magnets.

I did do some additional testing with iron wire wound in the coils, and some others with partial laminations wound in with the copper. But the best result I had by far was by coiling up the laminate in the center of the copper coils. Still not too sure why this worked as it did.

Let us know what develops!

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#13)
by bill541 on Thu Feb 26, 2004 at 08:57:14 PM MST

Thanks Ted,

That is a good idea about leaving some wires straight and some bent. I could even try that on this one to see what the effects might be.

If bending the wires straight does not work, the only thing left is the shape of the the wires on the back side of the coils. May need to add some more wire on the back as well. This would kind of tie them all together...Maybe...

-Bill-

[ Parent ]



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#8)
by PaulJ on Tue Feb 24, 2004 at 08:53:18 PM MST

    Hello Bill,
               Three weeks from the original concept to a working prototype - now that's impressive! I've been working on my latest windmill for months and haven't finished the alternator yet!

   I noted the small induction motor you're using (ceiling fans use induction motors, don't they?) - does it run slower than its unloaded rpm with your alternator connected? If so, did the different configurations make a difference? Does an electrical load on the output make a difference?

   I'm curious to know how efficient your machine is, and I was wondering if it would be possible to calculate the mechanical power input from the "slip" of the inducton motor. This might not be feasible, I'm no expert on induction motors!

   If there are differences in rpm I would imagine they would at least give an indication of the relative efficiency of each design.



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#10)
by bill541 on Wed Feb 25, 2004 at 09:23:10 AM MST

Hi Paul,

The little fan motor does run a bit faster without a stator in place when the fan motor is set to low speed. On high, there is little change.

When the core wires were pointed straight at the magnets (cogging severe), I could stall the motor out on low speed by shorting the stator windings.

After bending the core wires over to form a "T" and slots (minor cogging), I could no longer stall the motor at any speed.

I have not made efficiency measurements yet, but plan to.

Thanks, Bill

[ Parent ]



Re: Wire Core Stator Experiment (none / 0) (#11)
by hvirtane on Wed Feb 25, 2004 at 11:59:11 AM MST

Your alt looks really nice in my opinion.

I had some time ago an idea that the laminated
core for a brakedrum alternator (a'la Hugh Piggott)
could be made of similar wires you are using for the laminates.

I think that when you'll got the combination of
the laminations and the coil wires right it will
work really effectively. Please keep on experimenting and please keep us posted!

- Hannu



Wire Core Stator Experiment | 13 comments (13 topical)
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