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How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter!


By tgerdes3609, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 08:17:19 PM MST
How do I find a  12 volt to 2-phase 220 volt inverter

I have a 5000 watt Generac generator that has a 220 volt 2-phase female connection that I can plug into a 220 volt plugin on my house!  I have set this plugin to a generator box in the house that has a switch on it to switch some of my power circuts in the house from Utility power to generator power!  The power coming from the generator is 220 volt 2-phase power.  Each black wire has 120 volts coming in on it!  I seperate each black wire to a seperate bus in the generator panel.  This gives me two 120 volts lines with multiple circut breakers on each line!

I have 5 twelve volt batteries hooked up in parallel that are charged by two solar panels!  I would like to run a power inverter that will convert the 12 volt battery power into a 220 volt 2-phase power!   Does such an inverter exist that I can plug into my existing generator plugin on the house?

How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#1)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 08:37:57 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I think you need 2 of the Trace SW2512 inverters.
As far as I know, its about the only "grid tie" 12 volt inverter there is.  You can stack two in series for the 220 volt, and Im sure the wiring would be the same... thats how all 220 is in the US as far as I know.

The problem is that they don't make em anymore...  trace (and most other companies) quit building nice 12 volt inverters figuring that anybody who can afford one probably isnt messing around with 12 volts anymore (at least that's my guess).

But you can pick them off ebay fairly often, lots of folks get rid of those when they upgrade their systems to higher vltage.

Im not sure if any other models of Trace inverters can be stacked like that.  



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#2)
by Demetri (corvettemach1@yahoo.com) on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 09:48:24 PM MST
(User Info)

What about this one?

http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/dr_series.html

Hope this helps.

Demetri
Uncommon sense required.



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#3)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 10:19:22 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Yes, I didnt realize you could stack that model...
that'd work fine too...  and they're still available @ 12 volts and they cost much less.

[ Parent ]


Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#5)
by Don on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 12:44:30 PM MST
(User Info)

Whoa!

In order to stack two inverters, you'd need to synchronize their phasing... when one is at zero, the other must likewise be at zero (degrees). If you don't do so, then you're adding sine waves that are most likely not only out of phase, but most probably (slightly) different frequencies.

I don't know THAT inverter, but I do know inverters. If there is not a way to synchronize the two inverters, then you cannot stack them.

What I'd suggest is to get a 110 - 220V transformer. The centertap is only necessary for grounding (safety) purposes.  You don't actually use the third lead, the ground, as a conductor in your circuit.  You can have common-mode voltage problems if you don't have a center tap on the 220V side, so I'd recommend you use a center-tapped 220V secondary.

Lastly, there is no such thing as "2 phase."  What you have coming in to your house is single phase 220 with a center tap.  The center tap is tied to ground, giving you the top half 110 and the bottom half 110.  I can go into more detail, but I posted on this about a year or so ago, talking about the difference between commercial three phase power and residential single phase power.

Regards

[ Parent ]



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#7)
by tgerdes3609 on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 08:31:43 PM MST
(User Info)

I am interested in reading your article that describes this in more detail!  thought that the 240 volts coming into the house was 2-phase!  I know that the 240 volts coming from the utility company is 240 volt 2-phase!  May though the power coming from the generator is not the same as the power coming from the utility company!

[ Parent ]


Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#13)
by dozer on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 04:00:56 AM MST
(User Info)


I'm glad to see someone mention the need for phasing !  <g>

I agree completely with the recommendation to use a xformer.

However, I wouldn't minimize the center-tap issue.  It's not real clear how his house is wired, or what type of loads might end up connected to his split-phase setup, but any unbalanced load is going to send a lot of current down that 'neutral', and it's quite possible that such a load is present, or will be connected in the future, possibly unthinkingly...

That would also affect the sizing of the xformer.  It might need to be roughly double the usual VA, in order to support most of the current of the total KW level flowing in only half the secondary...


[ Parent ]



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#4)
by bob g on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 12:07:26 AM MST
(User Info)

as i have read here posted by Dan i believe, i would look seriously at finding a UPS with a 120 volt front end.

i picked one up surplus a year ago, it is a hewlett packard, pure sine wave 220vac rated at 3 kw. it is a very heavy rack mounted unit, that i paid 50 bucks for.

it is very hard to build an inverter for 50 bucks let alone buying inverters to stack.

you might do some searching in larger markets, i dont know where you are from, but large businesses retire these UPS when the batteries get tired or as a part of an equipment upgrade.

i guess i am a serious collector of UPS's and inverters, i just cant seem to walk by one without dragging it home.

bob g



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#8)
by tgerdes3609 on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 08:34:08 PM MST
(User Info)

Where do you find retired 240 volt inverters like that!  I would like to pick one up for fifty bucks!  That would fit into my budget better!

[ Parent ]


Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#6)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 07:03:53 PM MST
(User Info)

Check out that link to donrowe.com
Not sure how it works, if you can draw off each 110 leg of the 220 seperately or if it's just for running 220 only, but they have an aims 220 inverter and I am pretty sure it is 12v. I thought about buying it myself for my well pump and aircompressor and such.

Thing to think about on that is if you are running a 220v device like a pump or motor the power should be balanced between each 110v leg, each drawing an equal amount as the device runs. However if you are spliting the 220v into seperate legs like in a breaker box and running 110v devices, then one 110v leg may have alot of draw like a fridge or microwave, and the othe leg my have none or very little draw like from a computer. I don't know if you can split the 220v model like that, and to wire into the house you would be doing it. Been awhile since I looked at that model, I think it was around $500-$600 or close.

I do have a Aims 5,000watt 110v inverter. So far I like it, but have not used it much yet to really know anything about it. I do know the fan seems to be temp sensing or something, sometimes it runs under a load, sometimes it doesn't. Must be temp controlled and run only when needed, that's nice! Maybe even all larger inverters do that? This is my first large one, rest were under 1,000watt.

www.aimscorp.net
(775) 7625400
Reno, Nevada

That's the info from the back of the manual for warraaty (warraaty is spelled as they spelled it!)

Hopefully they speak much better than they print manuals! The manual is ok, but a laugh a minute as you read it :)

Might want to give them a call and see if the inverter will work for what you want to do before buying one, if it looks sutible for your use.

I saw something mentioned about grid tie in the responses, but not actually sure if that's what you were wanting to do. This isn't a grid tie unit to feed power back to the grid! It just takes battery power and makes 220v, which is what I think you wanted.

.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#9)
by Demetri (corvettemach1@yahoo.com) on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 08:52:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Yes, AIMS makes 240 volt output 12 volt input inverters, I have two of them.

http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/aims_3000_240V.html

Demetri
Uncommon sense required.



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#10)
by tgerdes3609 on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 08:55:52 PM MST
(User Info)

Here is a page from the manual for my Generac Generator!  It shows the plug layout for the 240 volt cable that connects from my generator to the plugin on the side of my house.  I would need a inverter that could use this same cable!



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#11)
by Gary D on Fri Apr 2nd, 2004 at 05:17:40 AM MST
(User Info)

The trace 120 volt inverters are "stackable" that means you need 2 with a special wire to connect them together to make 220 volts. You are talking serious money here and if you don't have a friend that knows electrical connections, you could burn up the units in a second No warranty covers that mistake. Also, if you don't have a separate breaker box dedicated to the breakers you want to power with the generator and inverters Totally apart from any grid wires, LEGALLY you need a special double throw safety to keep from back feeding into the grid. Also if you look closely at your page you provided, even tho your generator is rated 220 volts it does say 1 phase. You will most likely need an electrical inspector check all your wiring before you put this in service (use it) or your homeowners policy is void if an electrical fire happens. These are a few things to think about, I'm sure there are a lot I missed.  Lots to research before you just hook up a generator onto a grid tyed house (unless you disconnect totally from the grid) Hope some of this makes sence  Gary D.

[ Parent ]


Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#12)
by tgerdes3609 on Sat Apr 3rd, 2004 at 07:24:50 AM MST
(User Info)

I do have a seperate box for my generator!  I have a plug on the outside of the house that the generator plugs into.  A with a 10/3 wiring I go from the plug to a special generator box!  Inside the generator box the the x and y leads are split to two different buses that can hold for breakers each.  The special generator box has many of the 120 volts circuts already hooked up to it!  The generator box has a switch in it that allows you to either be on Utility power or Generator power!  The switch is meant to not allow you to be on both at the same time!  My electric dryer, electric range, and air conditioner are powered from my regular 100 amp service box because they are 240 volts.  They are not hooked up to the generator box.

What I need is an inverter that I can plug into that has a four prong plug!  Like the diagram above.  It needs two hot wires (X, Y), a neutral and a ground.

The generator breaker box and all connections on the house have already been inspected by the state inspector and have been approved!

[ Parent ]



Re: How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! (none / 0) (#14)
by Don on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 09:18:46 AM MST
(User Info)

I again suggest a 120V inverter running into a transformer with a ratio of 1:2 (110:220), with a center tap on the secondary.

The center tap will go to the "neutral" lead. The ground tap should go directly to a ground rod (8 foot steel rod with copper cladding driven into earth).  The neutral lead/center tap will also end up at the same ground rod.  Yes, I am saying that you will have two wires running to the ground point.  They are for different purposes.  The neutral will carry the return 110V single-phase current you are using. The ground is for safety, so you don't kill yourself by touching the case on whatever you're running.

HTH



How do I find a 220 volt 2-phase Inverter! | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)
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