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120 volt inverters


By monte350c, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 08:26:07 PM MST
120 volt inverters - circuit and design help!

Hi All,

If I have 120 volts DC I'm looking for a little guidance on how to get 120 VAC 60hz from that...

I'm looking for a decent circuit, the less complicated the better, that is capable of producing a MSW from a 120 VDC input.

I have been looking at lots of circuits both here and elsewhere around the web, and most deal with 12 or 24. Lots of 555 based circuits (which I guess are square wave) and microprocessor circuits for sine - is there anyone who knows a decent circuit somewhere in between these two that would produce either modified sine in the traditional sense, or perhaps multi step modified sine?

I'm assuming there will be a 1:1 output transformer in this plan someplace - but I really haven't built even 1 inverter yet out of my various electronics projects and it seems high time to try one!

Thanks in advance for any help,

Ted.

120 volt inverters | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#1)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 08:43:17 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Your probably wanting to build....
but there are very nice computer UPS's that have 120 volt batteries in them... perhaps one of those would do.

I have one actually...cannot recall the output, but I think its around 1000 watts, perhaps more.  Its large, and heavy... even w/o the batteries in it.  Would something like that work?



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#2)
by ibedonc on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 09:20:04 PM MST
(User Info)

to do a MSW you would need to step from 0v to 60v to 120v back to 60v back to 0 so the first place you would need to be able drop your 120 to 60  , now a Full Bridge inverter that uses 4 mosfets in a bridge could do do 120volts ac for a 120vdc source , all mine are based on Plus minus supplied but that is because I need 240vac, so since you probably do not have a way to drop your 120 to the step voltage  my FSW PWM would be you best choice. The Full Mosfet Bridge can make 120vdc look like you have +-120vdc

and you would not need a transformer, how many watts ?



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#3)
by RatOmeter on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 09:30:02 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.rato.us

A while back, someone posted a link to a (kind of subversive topics) website a while that showed a simple inverter circuit. IIRC, there were two circuits; one was just a square wave and the other was a stepped wave that more closely approximated a sine.  Maybe someone can find that post (I tried a little).

A 120 VAC (rms) sine wave is almost 170 volts peak to peak.  RMS is a measure of the "area under the curve", so you could use a 1:1.4 transformer, pulsing the primary with a short pulse that makes the peak voltage (kind of) correct or use a 1:1 xformer and pulse it longer (I don't know if some devices might need the full peak-to-peak or if just the average power is OK).  In any case, you want to mimic the total power delivered by a true 120V RMS sine wave in each cycle.  This is what "modified sine wave" inverters do.  They can be the most simple (and least expensive) circuits to build or buy, though they have their drawbacks.

-RatOmeter



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#4)
by River Goat on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 10:07:58 PM MST
(User Info)

Hello monte350c,
My main battery bank was 120vdc for about 15 years, then last year I changed to a 132vdc(nominal volts). I power most of my loads direct from it. Most modern electronics that use switching power supplies, TV,VCR,DVD, computer monitor, compact floresant lights, ect., like 120 to 170 vdc. Resistive load like 120vdc. I went to the 132vdc system with plans to build a sinewave inverter and wanted a little higher peak voltage. I am working on a design and have built some prototypes but have managed to burn all of them up with large inductive spikes (140vdc makes big arcs).I will try to put togather the info I have if you are interested? There are not to many high voltage DC power users around and I wanted to make contact with you. I have lived with this system for many years now and it works real good for me. I run my woodworking tools, rototiller, weedeater, chainsaw and many other things on the highvoltage DC, but in this AC world there are some things that need AC.

River Goat(Jerry),



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#5)
by John II (jjones2(at)inetvisions.net) on Wed Mar 31st, 2004 at 11:09:37 PM MST
(User Info)

Jerry... 15 years is a long time to iron out alot of wrinkles ! I'm just starting to build a 120vdc system... and would love to ask you alot of questions. I don't know if it should be on this forum or if I should just Email you ?

I'll go ahead and ask you a few right now.

(1) I'm concerned about the safty of the system... and have not yet located any DC GFI's. What do you do for safty practices ? Do you run a total floating (non grounded) battery bank, or do you ground it ? and if so what polarity do you ground ?

(2) Have you run into any problems with ground loops in your equipment that you run directly off of DC ? As an example.. let's say you have a tv and a vcr that both have switching P.S. could there be stray currents between the chassis of ither of them, or perhaps say antenna terminals ? What's your thoughts and experiences on this ?

I find your 132v system very interesting... When your batteries are at their lowest dischared state, what would be your system voltage ?

I have been electrocuted with 120vac... so I'm really wanting some safty built into a 120-132vdc system.

Do you run any inverter off of your system ?

Your Input and help would be very much appreciated : )

John II   ( S.W. Missouri )

[ Parent ]



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#6)
by RobD on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 06:26:19 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.dsgnspec.com

Monte, You can not go from 120 volts DC to 120 AC directly. Here's why: 120 volts AC is RMS which means Root Means Square. RMS is the equivalent AC that will heat a resistor to the same level as the same DC value. In order to get from DC to 120 AC you need to multiply your DC by 2.83 which is 340 volts Peak to Peak AC. So if you pulse your DC you will need 340 volts to get your 120 AC. RobD



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#7)
by monte350c on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 02:38:24 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi all,

Thanks DanB I'll check into the surplus situation for computer UPS - though I'm itching to build something - you know how it is...

ibedonc - I am aiming at something around 1200 watts with a surge capability of about 3,000 to start a quarter horse induction motor. I have been reading your diary about the inverter you're working on with great interest.

RatOmeter - I saw that site too - I know it sounds nuts but I'm looking for a way to do this without a large output transformer. Not sure if that's going to be possible or not,

River Goat, sounds pretty interesting - I have read Jerry's posts on this board about the 120 VDC setup he is using at his shop. Still leaves a couple of things that need AC though - like induction motor powered stuff I can't seem to get around, at least no easily anyway. In the end I guess it will come down to which is more do-able, some kind of inverter, or changing induction motors for another type.

Thanks RobD - I kinda gathered that bit about RMS values, guess that's why a bridge makes about 1.4 times the DC voltage out of the AC input...

Still looking and if I find anything I'll post.

Having fun!

Ted.



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#8)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 11:24:22 PM MST
(User Info)

If running 120vdc how would you figure the amp hours?? Same way as 120vac?
Also how do things like a frigde or freezer (stuff with a compressor) run on 120VDC?

I suppose 10 12v batteries could be wired together for both 120vdc output, and 12vdc to an inverter somehow to power both??

I am enterested in this, if I can power have my house or better from DC without an inverter eating extra power.

How can you tell if something will run from dc directly, without burning it up?
If computers, monitors, and lights run straight from DC that helps alot. About 50-75% my power use I think!

Where can I find more info for this?
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#9)
by dozer on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 03:48:14 AM MST
(User Info)


I don't like HVDC systems because proper circuit-protection becomes very difficult (i.e. expensive).  It's relatively easy to break an AC arc because the current passes through zero every 8 milliseconds.  DC is a different story, and if you've ever looked at DC-rated industrial breakers, you will see all sorts of interesting, and costly, ways of blocking or blowing out the arc.

Some 120v AC breakers will function up to about 30vdc somewhat reliably; but they're not rated for it and there's no way of knowing which ones you can bet your house/life on.

Inverter:  you need 170vdc supply to run an H-bridge for 120vac output.

High-voltage / High-power inverter design ain't as simple as a lot of people seem to think, from some chip-company's optimistic app-note they come across.  I've designed power electronics (servo drivers, switching power supplies, VFD's, induction heat treaters) for 25+ years, and I -still- think it's a challenge <g>.

Making a proto work on the bench is one thing...making a unit that's robust under -field- conditions...for 10 yrs or more...is another kettle of fish entirely.

My advice:  find a cheap source of output-devices, because you're going to go through them by the dozen...and wear safety glasses.

Seriously tho...about the safety glasses...do wear them whenever you power up your proto.  TO-220's etc. -do- literally blow up from time to time...even a little to-92 going south can make you think someone fired a .22 right by your head... <g>

good luck with the project!



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#10)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 08:24:38 PM MST
(User Info)

TED:

I did UPS and DC/AC converters design and manufacture for a living -- so here is my 2 cents:
The 120 volts if you want to produce a 115 volts Sinewave AC output needs a way to convert it to +2-- and to - 200 volts ( 400 volts DC with a center tap),
Then one design a PWM circuit using a couple of POWER MosFets to generate the sinewave, properly filtered.
Unless you have a lot of electronic experience I do not recommend such project.

Regards
Nando



Re: 120 volt inverters (none / 0) (#11)
by River Goat on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 11:42:20 AM MST
(User Info)

Dozer,
You are right about switches and overcurrent protection being the big problem with HVDC. I use 480vac CBs,($30 new most of mine were free)they usually carry a dc rating of 130vdc and this, to my knowledge is very conservative. I agree you should never use a 120vac CB for 120vdc. Some switches can handle 120vdc just fine is they open fast enough. Closing the circuit is no problem but as you say extinguishing the arc when the circuit is opened is the problem because the voltage never goes to zero like AC. I add a cap. across the switch, (about 10uF, depending on the load)this keeps the voltage across the switch low until the gap is wide enough not to arc. I have a Mr. Coffee, with a cap. on the switch, that I have used every day for 10yrs. with no problem.
On the other hand the high current on switches and connections in LVDC systems can be expensive to deal with. The difference in IxIxR losses between 12v and 120v is a factor of 100. In real life it adds up to alot of watthours saved. The time and money to overcome the problems, for me has been small compared to the gains in efficiency.

Nothing to lose,
Knowing what will run on 120vdc isn't too clear cut. All CF lights with electronic ballists will work, VCRs with switching powersupplies will work if they don't use the line freq for a clock. Same thing for TVs and computer monitors, all that I have checked(roughly 100)work on 120 to 180 vdc, but several use the line freq for clock purposes and these won't work. You would need to have some who understands these circuits look at the schematic. Also the degaussing circuit has to be disconnected, then it will need to be manually degaussed. Mine needs it about every five years. With electronics, when you rectify and filter 120vac you get 150volts or so but most devices work down to 120vdc. My TV will begin to lose sync below 120v. Resistive loads(incandescent blubs,coffee makers, tosters, solder irons and others) want to see 120vrms; 120vdc is exactlly that. Brush type AC motors(power tools, vacuum cleaners, weedeaters, ect.) run fine on 120vdc, the switches are the problem; capacitors across the switch has worked for me.
There isn't much around for 120vdc refrigeration Low Keep Refrigeration did make a 120vdc unit but I think he sold his buseness. I have an LP frig, but I have plans for a HVDC unit using a linear compressor.

River Goat(Jerry)



Re: 120 volt inverters ATTN River goat (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by crashk6 (crashk6(at)solarstormtechnologies(dot)com) on Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 11:10:42 AM MST
(User Info)

River Goat,
  I know this is sort of an old discussion but your experience with HVDC in your everyday life interests me, would you be willing to let me pick your brain a bit on a few things?
Under user info you say you live in the Ozarks, anywhere close to Springfield? If so I'd love to see your power setup, my work has mostly been with LVDC but I'm after some efficiency gains and HVDC has always interested from the time I was young when I read about Henry Clews' homestead up in Maine. His HVDC wind generator setup was not only fascinating but made practical sense.

At any rate drop me a note if you find this message.

crashK6 (Shawn)
crashk6@solarstormtechnologies.com

[ Parent ]



120 volt inverters | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)
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