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Underground pipe insulation


By Coolluke, Section Remote Living
Posted on Wed Mar 31, 2004 at 10:03:01 PM MST
http://www3.telus.net/teeoff/solar

Can anyone suggest the best way to insulate 1 in. poly pipe underground? I have to run 40ft. of pipe underground from the pump to the solar collector and back to the pool. And I'm worried that I'll lose what I'm gaining to mother earth. www3.telus.net/teeoff/solar
Underground pipe insulation | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#1)
by RatOmeter on Wed Mar 31, 2004 at 10:23:18 PM MST

I have ideas, but none proven by use so I'll leave the ideas to others who might have some experience.

I'm interested in the replies for a similar, maybe more common situation.  I live in a nice, new "spec" house (built on the speculation that someone would buy it).  I'm stuck with the design flaws and can't really complain too much given the circumstances.

My issue here is a severe ineffiency (in the energy sense) that is very common in modern homes. Before they pour the concrete slab, they stub in all the plumbing with no insulation of any kind. True to the standard, cookie cutter design, the hot water heater is in the garage; from there, the hot water goes right into the 'crete where it cools nicely. I can accept having to let the hot water faucet run for a bit before I get hot H20, but it seems to take no more than 2 to 4 minutes without running for it to cool back down to slab temperature.  It is a shining example for utilizing geothermal energy, but in a perverse reverse.

-RatOmeter



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#9)
by tawa on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 01:19:10 PM MST

Seems like one could use water cooled via many weaving pipes in the concrete to cool the whole house somehow, like during the summer.
--
[ Parent ]


Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#2)
by John II on Wed Mar 31, 2004 at 11:19:38 PM MST

I can recommend what NOT to use ! haha.  There is a split grey/black foam insulation tubing that's available in hardware /lumber yard stores. It's made to put over water pipes for just such purposes. I found out that when burried in the ground it rots in about 5 years ! I guess it's not made for burial. The type I had was grey/black in color. So don't use that stuff : (

John II



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#3)
by RobD on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 05:48:45 AM MST

Rat-

Why don't you run a POU On-demand hot water for your needs? Here's a place that I found cheap ones. I bought a low flow shower head from them and they were nice people.

As far as running under ground, it's a hard one, I want to run a line from a spring on my property that's about 100 feet from the house and I don't want to dig the 4 foot trench required to keep it from freezing. The only way to do it is keep the water running and I don't want to do that so call the back hoe!

RobD



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#5)
by RobD on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 06:13:26 AM MST

Woops!

Hot water heaters

[ Parent ]



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#4)
by tinker on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 05:52:34 AM MST

We had a short run underground in CO out to the barn, we centered a 3/4" waterpipe inside a 3" duct using wood spacers every 4'.
It was about 30' long, 4' down, it took a minute or so to warm up in morning but stayed warm a long time, through chores anyway. It gave about an inch airgap all around the pipe. Might be better with that expanding foam insulation?? PVC pipe would probably be more durable abit harder to place spacers maybe, duct was still working when we moved, (7 or 8 years later). My uncle does the same thing with his 'fire room', just bigger ducts.
(Cabin is on hill, fire room is underground below, warm air is ducted up to cabin, poorman's central heat)



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#6)
by old55olds on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 07:13:48 AM MST

Here is what I did for hot water heating running it 300 feet to a building.  2' Styrofoam. Cut into 8 inch strips. Dadoed a slot for the pipe in what looks like a sandwich. then glued the pair together with silicon. Burried 2 feet underground. Seems to work fine. but you must seal the ends or it will fill with water.



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#7)
by Gary D on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 08:26:43 AM MST

Wish I had thought of the styrofoam idea when burrying my pipes under the slab 20 years ago. I did put styro under the slab, But I just poured pearlite (sp?) all around the pipes. In my case, I don't think it mattered much, but every little bit helps.
  With a 40' run, I don't think much heat will escape compared to what you gain especially since you don't need to worry about freezing (unless you plan on putting a greenhouse around your pool) ;-) but any of these measures should help. Have fun! Gary D.

[ Parent ]


Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#8)
by Coolluke on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 09:41:57 AM MST

Thanks for the comments guys; I think I'm going to go with the wrap around foam insulation and I'll wrap the insulation in duct tape to give it a bit more life span. Living in a northern climate I want to make this system as efficient as possible C.L.



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#10)
by Old F on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 05:52:26 PM MST

Coolluke

For the 40 foot run from my out door wood stove to the house I used the black plastic sheeting
you get in rolls.  

I rolled it out in the trench open it up and laid the styrofoam on it and folded the rest back on top
of it.  

Old F

[ Parent ]



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#11)
by nothing to lose on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 08:55:35 PM MST

Some good ideas there.

I thought about running the water line from a heating source under ground to the trailer house also. My thought was to slice open a larger piece of pvc (2" or 3" ?)
Cover the 2 halves with something (Kitchen wrap?) so expaning foam won't stick to them. Then space the water pipe as I want it with a few pieces of foam for support.
Clamp 2 halves of external pipe together and fill with expanding foam. Once cured remove external pipe and I'd have a nicely insulated water pipe I can slide inside a solid external pipe the same size as my mold pipe was.

I figure cutting the mold pipe will make it slightly smaller diameter (blade thickness) and that should let the finished insulated pipe slide easily into a permanent pipe.

Also using half pipes for a mold it should be easy enough to be certain the inner pipe isn't drooping to the bottom anywhere and is evenly centerd before filling with expanding foam.

I think I could drill one half with holes every so far for filling the mold so I have no empty voids, easy shave off any fill sprues left and when slid into the permanent pipe there would be no holes to worry about except joints and ends.

Could leave ends of inner pipe exposed to permit easy connections, slice external pipe or couplers in half and glue together and fill with foam after installing pipes easily if using pvc type pipe for external.

Several other reasons I thought this might work well, like if a pipe gets broke it's easy to replace, making specail sizes or joints etc..
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#12)
by rhud on Thu Apr 01, 2004 at 09:38:26 PM MST

i've got about 150 feet of underground to a water stove.  two 3/4 pex, two 1/2 pex.  basically dug trench below frost line.  unrolled pex and insulated about 12 feet of it(each pex tube) at a time, with the black foam tube stuff. then with help push a section of 4 inch pvc rigid pipe over the insulated lengths of pex. glue on a 4 inch coupling, then insulate another 12 or so feet of the pexand so on.  use high grade foam tape to connect and insulate the foam joints. its a tight fit but i did it alone.  elbowed up the 4 inch (use a long sweep elbow if you can find them (or two 45s if not).  stub out of the ground with the 4 inch pvc and pex.  protect the opening of the 4 inch with foam packing and weather proofing.  if you develope a leak it will show up by filling up the 4 inch and running out one of the stub ups. otherwise its full of air. i've had good luck with this system for the past four years running water at 200 degrees from the stove (knock on wood) long story short, used 4 inch pvc as a conduit for foam-tube insulated pex tubing.      is the poly going to take the heat of a solar?  low grade heat maybe?



Re: Underground pipe insulation (none / 0) (#13)
by dozer on Sun Apr 04, 2004 at 01:19:49 AM MST

  1. yrs ago I did an 80' well-line in N. Minnesota...about as cold as it gets, shy of Alaska anyway... <g>
  2. " black-poly tubing, and I used the thickwall version even tho it's harder to handle.  Better insulation, and far more resistant to crushing from rocks intruding where they don't belong...
We spiral wrapped heating-tape all the way out, then covered the entire length with the split-foam 4' pieces.  The foam joints were taped.  We streched out the entire length of poly between a corner of the cabin and the back of the truck....about 3-4' in the air. This made it vastly easier to do all the wrapping etc..

The cabin was about 20' back from the edge of a sandstone bluff over a river, so there wasn't a lot of overburden.

I dug the trench with a backhoe, down to bedrock the whole way.  Soil at the cabin wall was only 30" deep, tapering down to about 7' deep at the wellhead.

The entire tubing/heat-tape/insulation assembly was laid in the trench, and then we slid 10' lengths of thinwall 4" PVC over it.  This pipe is made with one end formed larger as a female, so no couplers are needed.

I did NOT glue the joints, as that almost guarantees that it will eventually fill with water.

If you're doing this right, you will have designed the trench for proper drainage.  We put a thick layer of clean coarse sand on the bedrock the whole length of the trench...a foot thick at the cabin...increasing to maybe 18" at the well; then laid the line on top of that.

After the PVC was installed, and all hookups were made, we laid another 6" of sand to fill the trench to just over the top of the pipe.  Then we cut 4x8 sheets of 2" pink-styro insulation into trench-wide strips, again running the entire length.  Another 12" of sand over that, followed by pit-run to fill to top.  Be damn sure you don't have any rocks near the line, because they WILL move during freeze/thaw, and eventually pinch off your line.

Temps at this location were in the -30 F range for a few days at a time several times each winter.  We'd usually turn on the heat-tape when it got down near zero, but forgot once or twice.  Never had a problem with this.

You might think about what else you'd want run too...

After the work of digging out all that glacial till (rocks!), we saw that nice open trench going within a few feet of the shop (wellhead near shop), and ran a 2nd 4" PVC with 3 coaxes, 4 phone lines, and 10baseT ethernet through it while we were at it....and also laid a new 200amp direct-burial cable alongside, to bump the shop up from 60amp to 200amp capability.  And were glad we did!  Very nice to have all that stuff in the succeeding years.



Underground pipe insulation | 13 comments (13 topical)
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