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induction generator


By bob g, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Fri Mar 5th, 2004 at 10:36:58 PM MST
how large can an induction generator be?

picked up another link in my cogenerator project

230/460 volt, 3 phase 1140 rpm motor

going to connect it to the front of the thermoking unit (isuzu) diesel engine via a driveshaft w/ujoints.

low idle govenor setting is 1300 rpm with the engine, accounting for some droop in rpm i should be close to the generating point of this motor.

not sure how much mf. in capacitors i need to convert the motor into an induction generator, source i have lists up to 10hp at 1740 rpm. the source also says to increase mf. for lower rpm motors, but doesnt say by how much. also doesnt tell me much about hp ratings above 10 hp.

any info would be appreciated

also my electronics training is rusty, need to know if the following is correct

  1. 2- 10 mf capacitors in parallel = 20 mf. ?
  2. 2- 10 mf in series = 5 mf?
  3. can 2- 100 volt rated caps placed in series handle 200 volts?
i just cant seem to remember the rules relating to series/ parallel operation of capacitors.

anyone??

bob g

induction generator | 18 comments (18 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#1)
by TomW on Fri Mar 5th, 2004 at 10:50:31 PM MST
(User Info)

Bob;


   1.  2- 10 mf capacitors in parallel = 20 mf. ?
   2. 2- 10 mf in series = 5 mf?
   3. can 2- 100 volt rated caps placed in series handle 200 volts?

That is correct.

Cheers.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#2)
by bob g on Fri Mar 5th, 2004 at 11:13:37 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks TomW

got anymore info on induction generators? i could use a bit more info on connections and how much capacitors to use

bob g



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#3)
by bobn on Sat Mar 6th, 2004 at 01:12:37 AM MST
(User Info)

You might be able to get some info here Bob
http://www.redrok.com/cimtext.pdf

bobn



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#4)
by BurksFallsMan on Sat Mar 6th, 2004 at 05:13:56 PM MST
(User Info)

Man... Whoever wrote this knew what his was talking about!!!
Good reference for me too...
Wilson

[ Parent ]


Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#5)
by Cletrac (Cletrac@comcast.net) on Sat Mar 6th, 2004 at 05:19:55 PM MST
(User Info)

Are you trying to make the motor generate in stand alone mode? In other words not in sync with the grid? There is a book you should have called "Motors as generators for micro-hydro power" by Nigel Smith. The capacitance you need will be based on the no load voltage and current of the motor and whether it is a star or delta connected motor.  Get the book.

Once you are done I believe you will find that an IMAG (induction motor as generator) is a poor substitute for a real generator. The frequency will fluctuate with RPM and the voltage will fluctuate with load which will require capacitor value changes to bring the voltage back in line with the load. In addition to which if the load swings too much the motor will just plain quit generating.

On the caps you are correct.

Dave



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#6)
by bob g on Sat Mar 6th, 2004 at 06:38:59 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks for the reference book, i will look for it.

as for using the motor as a generator, i realize there are limitations. There is no active voltage regulation, and additional caps may have to be incorporated to correct for loading. frequency is another issue, but as i understand it is more a function of driven rpm and thusly the ability for the prime mover to hold the rpm constant over the design load rating. Am i correct so far?

the motor i am using is a 230/460 15 hp unit.

the most it will ever see at anyone time is approx a total of 1 hp of induction motor, the balance will be resistive loads ie. lighting

this unit is incorporated into the cogenerator scheme, and will only be used to run the washer/dryer while in the run mode, which is targeted to be no more than two runs of 2 hours per day maximum

cost is also a factor as i picked up the motor for 75 bucks including a 42/gallon per min at 1000 psi hyd pump, with love joy and all mounting hardware. as you see i have little investment in the motor, and i think an over capacity for what i plan on actually pulling off of it, so voltage regulation should not be as large a problem as with a smaller (lower hp) induction motor to generator conversion.

does this make sense? does to me

still looking for capacitor values, anyone else have any links or ideas?

bob g



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#7)
by kell on Sat Mar 6th, 2004 at 07:40:48 PM MST
(User Info)

Open bobn's link.  It has capacitor values.



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#8)
by Cletrac (Cletrac@comcast.net) on Sun Mar 7th, 2004 at 04:17:56 AM MST
(User Info)

If you use the same set up but take advantage of net metering and use the grid as your battery and as the excitation voltage and frequency you can use the exact same set up but with much less headaches. Just a thought

Dave



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#9)
by bob g on Sun Mar 7th, 2004 at 08:17:07 AM MST
(User Info)

power lines too far away, to be of any use to me. even if they were there i wouldnt want to hook up to them.

found a couple of good sites last night, getting more and more info on power factor correction and switching schemes to correct voltage under load.

i think i am getting closer, bought ready to order some run caps and build up the cap bank.

thanks guys
bob g




Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#10)
by DualFuel on Sun Mar 7th, 2004 at 06:01:12 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi, BobG
 I use the schematic from Redrok. I use 50MFD 220volt motor run capacitors.
Heres the deal:
1. The engine governor also acts to regulate the voltage. The caveat is that
the pulley on the engine needs to be smaller then the motor pulley (for belt
drive). This gives the engine better control over load fluctuation.
  1. The frequency might not stay exactly 60 hrz.
  2. I pull off one leg to run the washing machine. it does fine.
  3. Sometimes if the caps sit too long it won't start under load.
  4. With generator spinning, arc a battery across the caps, to start when dead.
 Frankly, I wish I'd found this setup earlier, it is very cheap and very durable.
To the naysers out there, a question: How much did your portable diesel welder
cost? I built mine for $600. Price includes diesel engine and Lincoln welder.

 My generator is diesel in which I burn biodiesel. I wire a leg of the wye
(for 220volt) and heat my methanol recovery still with the generator. With
these 3 phase motors capable of putting out 440volts they can power deep fryers
which will heat the WVO feedstock really fast.
 I got my first 3 three phase motors for free. Two 15hp units and a 3hp unit.
So actually, I could run the 3hp unit with one of the 15s. These induction generators
start other motors real good too. Now I am working with a local electrical commercial contractor to recieve two 50hp units when they are removed from a water treatment
plant. One of these will be shaft driven by a 6.2 diesel controlled by a Hoof belt
drive governor.
 Anyhow, Bob I encourage you to pursue this line. You can make a lot of watts
very inexpensively.
yours,
DF




Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#11)
by bob g on Sun Mar 7th, 2004 at 08:50:19 PM MST
(User Info)

hey DualFuel:

thanks for the input, a couple of questions

  1. the redrock schematic, where do i find it?
  2. where are you connecting the 220 vac 50 mfd caps? it is my understanding that i need at least 480 vac units.. perhaps the schematic i have has them connected differently than you do on yours.
  3. can i get a copy of you schematic to compare to the one i am using?
the motor i am using can be connected as 230 vac at 40 amps, and this is my perferred connection. i dont need 440 volt power, but i would like to split the wye connection to get a 115 vac leg, as well as a 230 vac 2 phase, also the ability to get 3 phase power to run some smaller 1/2 or 3/4 hp motors for shop equipment would be nice.

the predominant use would be washer/dryer motors, refridgeration compressor, and light loads while the cogenerator is running.

so far i have the control panel completed, it is basically a relay system to auto switch from inverters to the induction generator while the cogenerator is running.

if you can add more help or ideas i would appreciate it, as well if i can get to use 370 vac caps or less i am all the more ahead as i can get them cheap from surplus center in nebraska.

thanks for your help

bob g



the redrok article (none / 0) (#12)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Mon Mar 8th, 2004 at 01:36:21 PM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

The redrok article is here:

http://www.redrok.com/cimtext.pdf

- Hannu



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#13)
by bob g on Mon Mar 8th, 2004 at 02:58:23 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks for the link, i found it after a bit of work last night, it is a copy of the same schematic i had sent to be by another board member a couple of weeks ago.

thank you for the effort

i like your genset, looks good

bob g



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#14)
by DualFuel on Mon Mar 8th, 2004 at 05:03:09 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi BobG.
 Mine is wired exactly like the schematic at Redrok. I couldn't find the link but had saved the pdf file at this site here a couple of weeks ago.
 I have wired my 15hp motor for three phase 220vac operation. Basically you use the outer coils for 120 volt power.
 Some other caveats:
 I have wired two of the three outer legs to a breaker panel. The caveat here is that the neutral buss bar must have its connector dismantled. Another way of saying this is that the two 120 volt circuits CANNOT share the same neutral. Remember all three circuits of a threephase generator add up to zero volts at any given time. It probably doesn't make sense until one sees a graph of the three sine waves. What this means in our case is that the circuits we pull off the legs must be keep seperate.
 In order to get 220vac without opening and taping the center of the wye, I use any two inner windings.
 I don't worry about balancing loads on the legs. The motor is big enough that it seems to be able to handle it. It never gets hot.
 As far as caps go. I did not have 440vac caps so I used what I could get real cheap. A friend gave me 8 25MFD non-electrolytic motor run caps. So far no troubles. The big thing I think, for intermittant duty, is a disconnect switch that isolats them from the  motor. When and if you have to charge them with a battery, its a dead short across them if the motor is hooked up too (see schematic). I've unhooked them to charge them and I have just arced them. Both techniques worked but I didn't care for the spark with the motor hooked up.
 Another caveat, If you use the protected caps from microwaves you'll have to charge them to get them going. So look for the ones with no internal bleed off resistor.
 One thing, if you are like me and don't like the racket, its nice to crank the RPMs up a little so the volatage at the house is 120 even though the generator is a ways off.
 What else,
 Start canvassing your friends and the junk piles for three phase lathes and other industrial equipment. If you do this you will now have three phase power for your tools. Thats nice. Friend of mine is forking over a 2hp vacuum priming pump from the water treatment plant. Thats a pretty wicked score especially for methanol recovery.
 Later Dualfuel



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#15)
by bob g on Mon Mar 8th, 2004 at 08:55:26 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks for the input dualfuel:

i looked up the redrock site and found two differing shematics, one is wye and one is delta.

which did you use?

bob g



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#16)
by Bill K on Thu Apr 8th, 2004 at 01:56:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Gentlemen,

I am a registered electrical engineer, and happen to be setting up a home cogen setup much like the ones you folks are describing.  I have some serious concerns about that pdf file you are referencing, with the myriad connections in different places for caps and 120V feeds.

First of all, the setup as indicated is wired for the standard high voltage configuration, likely 480V configuration.  This necessitates that you install higher voltage, mor expensive caps than necessary.  I don't see why the author thinks they need to be placed on the high voltage legs in the first place.

Secondly, and more importantly, the configuration shown is not only extremely confusing, it is providing only half the rated capacity of the motor/generator if you are set up to take off 208Y/120V which is what most people are doing (whether they know it or not :-))

Mosst of the rest of what is written in that article however is pretty accurate, but that schematic is confusing enough that it may get somebody killed, thus I thought this note was in order.

Those windings within a typical motor are much like a center-tapped transformer, and are meant to be series wired for the higher voltage and parallel wired for the lower voltage.  This is why the wires are taken to the outside of the case for field arrangement in the first place.  Tapping only the midpoint of the series arrangement, will only give you half the current capacity of the motor's rating.  The other (3) coils are just sitting there in series with the caps making reactive (unusable) current. Unless I misunderstood the circuit, which I doubt.

Regarding capacitor selection, don't look for some reference book to tell you what you need, this needs to be selected in the field due to rpm, inherent inductive value, hp and other factors.  It is quite simple, just get your rpm regulation in order, set the system up with some caps just enough to make some voltage (by trial and error) and adjust your rpm to get as close to 60 Hertz as possible.   Obviously the rpm has an operating window and will fluctuate a little but if its swing is minimized, it won't affect anything except line powered motor type clocks, which almost nobody has nowadays anyhow.

Then, adjust your no-load voltage by adding or subtracting caps.  Get your no load voltage at the high end of tolerance, say 130V line to neutral.  Then as you add load, the voltage will droop some, but if your system is large enough, it will still be within acceptable limits.  I would avoid drooping below about 105V though.

Reactive loads such as motors are going to cause the most droop during continuous running, and you can fix this too.  Add the correct value of motor run (power factor correction caps) directly to the large motor's leads, so that the cap is only connected when the motor is powered.  This is standard industrial practice and there are charts available which tell you exactly what size to use (unlike for motors-as- generator cap selection).  Then your big motors won't cause such a droop.

Again, most of what others say in this thread is correct.  Wire in series same value caps will halve the mfd value and double the voltage rating.  Parallel will double the mfd rating with keeping the same voltage rating.  Don't undersize the voltage rating unless you want fireworks and oil sprayed all over the place.

Another note, what you are looking for is nominal 208V line to line measurement.  That is standard 3-phase voltage, which gets you the 120V rating.  Of course you will be varying the voltage as previously discussed, but many people confuse 240V with 208V systems, and think that they are going for 240V, and wonder why the single phase voltage is up to 138V or more.  The reason is that sq.root of 3 times 120V gives you the necessary line to line voltage for three phase systems.

One other note.  You don't HAVE to take off all 3 phases.  You can just put one bank of caps across 2 lines, use those 2 lines plus your center tapped neutral (GROUND IT for SAFETY) and have a nice 208V single phase system with 120V available from either leg to neutral also.  So remember, your caps go from line-to-line, not line-to-neutral.

Regarding startup, you are not supposed to start up ANY generator under load in the first place, so if you follow that rule, you should nearly never have a problem unless you run out of gas or something and possibly lose the residual magnetism for that reason.  12VDC across the lines for a second or 2 will fix that in a hurry.  You could even automate that with some contactor arrangement to spark the windings during initial startup to be sure :-)
Hope all this helps,

Bill Kichman, P.E.
Kichman Engineering Associates
Cornwall, PA



Re: induction generator (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by Deepak Singh (singh_dnepal@yahoo.co.in) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 11:37:55 PM MST
(User Info)

hi Mr.Kichman
my name is Deepak Singh
i a student of electrical engineering (final year)from 'Institute of Engineering',Nepal

i am conducting my final year project on "Electricity generation from wind for rular household"

for this purpose i have selected single phase motor and planing to make SEIG(single phase)

if you have any suggestion please mail me at     singh_d12@hotmail.com

i am encountring a lot of problem
i am not able to exict the motor

please mail me soon so that i can reply you my problem, rating and configuration of my motor along with my plans (different mobes of output)which i have collected form various sources.

bye

[ Parent ]



Re: induction generator (none / 0) (#17)
by dozer on Fri May 28th, 2004 at 01:21:55 AM MST
(User Info)


Thanks for posting those notes Bill.  I thought the schematic was a little screwy also.  The only reason I can see for the way the caps are connected at the higher potential is to reduce the value required.  Perhaps whoever drew it had a box full of 440vac caps around... :grin:

BobG:  Will you email me please?  I too have a C201, and wanted to touch base with you on a couple things...

metal, at fullwave, and put the ol' dawt-com after it.

thanks!

Richard

[ Parent ]



induction generator | 18 comments (18 topical, 0 editorial)
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