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Static Electricity Wind Generator


By HareBrained, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 11:26:16 PM MST
Can we make electricity the way mother nature does?

There was some discussion recently of up-converting voltage for longer transmission
lines.  I started to wonder whether it's possible to make an alternator design
that would naturally produce high volts even at low rpms.  This is really the
goal of all the home built PM alternators being discussed here.

I got to thinking that maybe a low-speed, high-torque blade could be designed
that would be easier to build than the ones described by Hugh's book (i.e., without
airfoils so low TSR approx 1).  You could use this to spin fur on glass or
something and generate high volts (but very, very low current) pretty easily.
However, you'd have to go replace the parts every once in a while as they would
likely wear out due to friction.

Then I got to thinking about whether you could build a generator just from air
moving over some material with the right static-electric properties, and build
up a charge that way.  I wonder if a length of PVC pipe, stuck up in the air
and electrically isolated, would develop a good charge in the wind.

You'd have to build some kind of circuit to down-convert the high volts to
something useful for charging batteries, but maybe putting it through a
big L into a big C would do the trick, with some kind of switching PWM-type
regulator.  Parts would have to be robust to avoid getting blown by the
high static charges, and if you put it up on a tower it might become a
lightening magnet, but maybe these problems are surmountable.

The cool thing is this "wind generator" would have no moving parts and
it would be super low-cost.

Anybody think it would work?

Static Electricity Wind Generator | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by prodael on Tue Nov 9th, 2004 at 11:42:47 AM MST
(User Info) www.woodpedestals.com

Since I'm new to this board, I've been going through the old posts.

Just reposting a link down here so it's easier to see.

http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/radiant_energy_diatribe.htm

Few questions on this. First, seeing both coaxial wire and insulated wire being used in this discussion, these are not the same are they? What kind of wire is best to use, plain insulated or coax with the outer covering removed?

Trying to understand the circuit diagram, the spark plug and ignition coil are bringing the higher voltages stored in the wire down to 12 volts, why wouldn't a 12v capicitor work instead?
What is the purpose of the capacitor that is in parallel? Is it for safety in case the the spark plug & coil blow?

Last question, if multiple smaller lengths of wire are used instead of one really long wire  (3x200 instead of 1x600 for example) would this be equivalent? Asking because its easier to find smaller lengths of wire, plus less charge on each one would keep voltages a bit safer.



Try (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by oldtimerock on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 07:11:50 AM MST
(User Info)

Yeah, I don't see how that would work either.
I haven't built one of these, but the way I understand them to work is to connect one side of the capacitor to the charge collector wire and the other side of the capacitor goes to ground. but lets see anyways...

programmer from bears coloring pages




Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#1)
by John II (jjones2(at)inetvisions.net) on Fri Apr 2nd, 2004 at 04:10:38 AM MST
(User Info)

You think too much ! .........  just joking  ; )

It's the wee hours of the morning, and I'm too tired to avail the effort right now to do the research... but I think it was Popular Science in one of their magazines around 1980 ran an article detailing how scientist toyed with the idea of having a sort of netting hung between poles. water was pumped on it.. and as the droplets dripped on it, the water droplets picked up static from being blown by the breeze, and this static charged water droplets was then used to produce electricty. So in short... others have at least considered this. Probably wouldn't work in subzero temps... haha

Some where laying around here, I also have a book, where the author shows how to build static electricity motors up to 1/4 hp in size that runs directly off of atmospheric static. His motors do not contain windings, but contains plates that repell each other by their electrostatic charges. He just used a long wire strung out like an antenna. Just naturally charged atmospheric air can produce quite abit of power..... It doesn't require much of a wind.... just a good breeze. There's what's known as ion storms which usually just proceeding rains, the air can be increadably charged when this happens. This is more noticiable in dryer climates then in high humidity climates. But often I have seen observed this effect in high humidity as well.

The problem with transfering static electricity down long transmission lines, is that it's just as eaisly lost and re-assorbed right back into the atmosphere !

As far as winding wind generators for higher voltages, just by reducing the diamenter of your wire in the windings, you can eaisly wire wind generators to produce up into the thousands of volts. Usually even if you wind them to produce even 200 to 400 volts allows for increadably long transmission lines. If you go to too high of a voltage, then your wire will become expensive because it would require extra high dilect insulated wire such as sparkplug wire.

With voltages in the 400 volt range which most lower cost wire can handle still will allow you to run reasonable power upto a mile or so with very low losses.

I myself find atmospheric static fun to consider.... because even distant lightning will produce huge surge voltages in a large longwire antenna, due to what's known as "electromagnetic induction" which is magnetic fields that the lightning creates. Then of course heavy ionic winds can cause your wire antenna to produce increadable arcs. There is potential power there. If you had two hill tops or high towers, and would string about an 1/8 mile of wire between them (you'd have to use steel such as gavanized electric fence wire) for it to be strong enough. Make sure it was broad sided as much as possible to your prevailing winds, and extablish a really good ground rod system. And don't hang around it during lightning storms !

Just my two 2 1/2 cents worth of thought at 4:00am   : )

John II



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#2)
by franknbuger on Fri Apr 2nd, 2004 at 08:10:31 AM MST
(User Info)


   Hello!
  People have been using static wind charging for many years.Be careful the charge can get quite high.Below is a link to: "Capicitive Battery Charger".The more wire the more voltage.Let me know if this helps.As I always say please advise.
                                                Frankenbuger

    http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/capcharg.html

[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#3)
by Electric Ed on Fri Apr 2nd, 2004 at 02:58:46 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.electric-ed.com

My firewall (Zonealarm) doesn't like that site. Approach with caution.

Electric Ed

[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#4)
by kell on Fri Apr 2nd, 2004 at 05:31:15 PM MST
(User Info)

The diagram doesn't quite agree with the text.  What's the right way to do it?

[ Parent ]


Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#5)
by DakotaSIG on Fri Apr 2nd, 2004 at 08:47:24 PM MST
(User Info)

Yeah, I don't see how that would work as drawn either.
I haven't built one of these, but the way I understand them to work is to connect one side of the capacitor to the charge collector wire and the other side of the capacitor goes to ground. The spark plug, coil, and battery are all hooked in series and then placed in parallel with the capacitor. The spark plug gap is adjusted to limit the voltage on the capacitor so it doesn't break down. When the spark plug breaks down, the charge in the capacitor flows through the arc into the coil. The coil is only acting as an inductor not a transformer. The coil provides a place for the current pulse to go until it can be absorbed by the battery. No connection is made to the coil secondary.
Hopefully, somebody here has built one of these and can explain it better.
BTW, I think this was originally a Tesla idea (radiant energy), so look for a reference to Tesla patents.

[ Parent ]


Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#7)
by HareBrained on Sat Apr 3rd, 2004 at 04:10:35 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks for the link, Frankenbuger, it looks interesting.

I had something in mind like the circuit on that page for collecting
the charge, but I guess I don't understand the effect that's being used
to charge up the long wire.  Is it coming from EM waves, using the wire
sort of like an antenna?

What I had in mind would actually use the wind to do some work, separating
oppositely charged ions from one another.  It wouldn't be free energy or
perpetual motion, just a new way to use the wind with a solid-state type
generator machine.

What I don't know is how many volts a segment of PVC pipe would build
up in the wind, or how many nanoamps you could expect to get from it.
I assume you would take it through an inductor of some kind in a buck-boost
type arrangment to collect charge in a capacitor and do some battery
charging.


[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#9)
by DakotaSIG on Sat Apr 3rd, 2004 at 09:30:14 PM MST
(User Info)

When the wind blows against trees, buildings, etc. it (the wind) becomes charged. Air rubbing against something will collect charge in the same way a rabbit fur rubbing on plastic collects charge. Air is an insulator just like pvc pipe, so the charged air molecules don't have any way to conduct their charge to ground. The static charger wire collects this charge when the wind blows the charged molecules against it. That's how the wire becomes charged. Hope this helps. :)


[ Parent ]


Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#14)
by HareBrained on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 11:02:50 AM MST
(User Info)

Right, that's how I understand static electricity works, but the two
pages seemed to be talking about "radiant energy" which is something
else.

I imagine you could wind a piece of bare wire around the PVC pipe, sort of
in a wide spiral with lots of room between the turns, as a way to collect
the charge from the surface of the pipe.  I am guessing that these "radiant
energy" collectors being described are collecting the static charge from
the insulation, but they require the charge to pass through
the insulation which might be reducing performance.  I would guess that
the strongest static charge would really be on the surface of the insulator
so it would be best to collect it from there.  Also, the use of a big
(4" diameter or so) pipe would give the wind lots of surface area to work
on.

Perhaps, though, the bare wire on the outside would interfere with the static
collection by returning some charge to the air.  So, maybe you'd need to
coat it with an insulator or bury it slightly in the PVC by using some
glue to dissolve the surface just below the wire.

Anyway, just more random thoughts... if I get some time it'd be fun to try
to build one of these.

[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#6)
by kell on Sat Apr 3rd, 2004 at 11:38:33 AM MST
(User Info)

Very interesting.  The explanation on that site implied that the high voltage from the long wire went to the coil secondary and was transformed down to low voltage in the primary, which went to the battery.  I had a problem with that because you would need tens of thousands of volts on your long wire to make it work.

Since your version (assuming correct) only uses the primary side of the coil one could replace it with a toroid or bobbin inductor in the 5 or 10 millihenry range and a couple ohms or so.  You could tailor the inductor value for performance.

And you could use a bunch of long wires or even a long roll of chicken wire, painted with rubberized autobody undercoating or something, unroll it and suspend it.  More power!



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#11)
by dozer on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 03:26:16 AM MST
(User Info)


From the mention of coating the wire with plastic, and from the earlier mentions of PVC pipe as a 'collector', I think there's some confusion here between -generation- and the -collection-.

Yes, you use insulators for -generating- elecrostatic energy, but in this case, we're talking about -collecting- electricity from insulators (air) which have -already- been charged.

Thus, bare metallic conductors are what's called for, i.e. a wire.

Also, since y'all are talking about -alternators-, why aren't you just using a transformer to step it up ?  Virtually all 60 cps xformers work fine up to 400-800 cps, and many are still quite efficient at 1,000+ cps.  Not sure what freq you're expecting from your particular PM alt, but I'd be surprised if it was over 500-1,000 cps...

I'd stay under 600vac in any case.  You start getting weird corona effects and insulation breakdown over that, unless you specifically engineer the system for it.  Cheap SO or SJO cord will handle 600v no problem.

Around here the bears bite that sort of thing...water lines too...so we usually pick up any kind of cheap grungy used steel pipe, i.e. 1" pipe, and lay it along the ground, running the cable through it.

[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#8)
by kell on Sat Apr 3rd, 2004 at 08:39:22 PM MST
(User Info)

I found this link after much searching of the internet.  It is most interesting and addresses your theory/speculation in a very direct way.



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#10)
by DakotaSIG on Sat Apr 3rd, 2004 at 10:15:41 PM MST
(User Info)

Please post the link kell! :)

[ Parent ]


Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#12)
by kell on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 07:45:25 AM MST
(User Info)

http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/radiant_energy_diatribe.htm

oops, my bad, but I hope it was worth the wait.



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#13)
by HareBrained on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 10:56:38 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks, another interesting link.

These two schemes seem to have in common the use of a spark
plug gap to allow charge to build up in the collector and
then discharge it suddenly.  Why is this needed?  Is it acting
like a high-voltage diode, in a region where normal diodes
would get fried regularly?

I wonder if you could draw the charge off more continuously
and evenly, and perhaps get better efficiency, just by using
an inductor and putting it through a normal diode.  Perhaps the
diode would be shielded from the high voltage by the inductor.

Are there normal diodes that would survive a forward bias of
1000 volts or so?  How much do they cost?

[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#15)
by TomW on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 11:08:05 AM MST
(User Info)

HareBrained


Are there normal diodes that would survive a forward bias of
1000 volts or so?  How much do they cost?

They sure do make them. And they are free if you take some time to salvage a few microwaves. They also have high voltage capacitors in them, too.

I think the reason you need to let the charge accumulate for a period of time is that if it was connected to a load it would simply dissipate as low levels that would be unusable.

Cheers.

TomW

Light Travels Faster Than Sound, Which Is Why Some People Appear Bright Until You Hear Them Speak.


[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#17)
by HareBrained on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 11:59:50 AM MST
(User Info)

Ok, microwave ovens sound like veritable treasure troves of
useful parts.

Are you saying the charge would be dissipated due to resistive
losses in any kind of circuit?  I would think it would be stored
in the magnetic field of an inductor or a charge in a capacitor.
But, I guess these "storage" mechanisms will also dissipate due
to field collapse/leakage before too long.

Seems like a real switch (mosfet, maybe?  would it withstand
the high voltage?) would be more efficient than a spark gap.
What do you think?

I assume a buck-boost circuit is able to convert high volts/low amps
to low volts/higher amps.  I am still a bit confused about how this
works, though: there are only a limited number of coulombs per second
flowing into the input.  Where do the other electrons come from?

[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#18)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 02:35:09 PM MST
(User Info)

spark gaps are simple cheap and fairly indestructable. if you try to use  any sort of silicon in this system it will  eventually fry. you need to build up the charge on any static machine. if you try and  take power continously you will never build up enough charge as tom says. if there is lightning around it would be wise to disconnect the inverter at least ,and have the thing a long away from the house as well or have a good lightning protection system in place. look up lightning protection on some of the ham sites. i intend to try this as soon as i can find some wire. i see multistrand telephone cable thrown away quite often this sounds ideal as there is  more insulation than wire.

bob


[ Parent ]



Re: Static Electricity Wind Generator (none / 0) (#16)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Sun Apr 4th, 2004 at 11:36:14 AM MST
(User Info)

thx for the link kell, i had figured it out before i read it,nice to see my  thoughts confirmed.;-). that link to
 http://www.knowledgepublications.com/nuenergyorg_sunshinebook.htm
looked interesting, alarm bells  ringing, scam. anyone downloaded his e book? maybe i am just an old cynic,but anytink that makes me want to  reach for the credit card makes me nervous.

bob

[ Parent ]



Static Electricity Wind Generator | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial)
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