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i played with coils last night..


By electronbaby, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 09:29:14 AM MST
this is what i came up with.

These tests were done so i can come up with a suitable design for a stator for my new 24v, 14" diameter alternator. This stator will be very similar to my last 3 phase stator (9 coils) and will be aproximately 18" in diameter when the final casting is done. First, i have to come up with a coil design i think is adequate. To do this i made a new winder pictured below.

Here you can see how i waxed the inside of the winder so the crazy glue does not stick to the wood winder. This winder produces a coil 1/2" thick and the hole in the center is large enough to allow a magnet to pass through.

This coil is made with 2 strands of 14AWG wire. There are 47 turns. The hole in the center of the coil is large enough for a magnet to pass through with out covering other windings. In the end i might have to shrink the center a little. I know it will lead to slight losses, but as i stand now, I dont think i can squeeze the right amout of wire in to the coil with out it being too wide (i need 4 or 5 more turns). my other option, is to make the coil thicker or use smaller wire. i really dont want to do either. i havent decided what to do about this yet.

Here is my test coil. These coils are rather large and i had to figure out a way to hold it in the lathe securely. I ended up making a mould and casting it. there is a quarter next to it for scale. the big bolt allows me to clamp it securely in the lathe swing arm.

here you can see how i welded "wings" on the bolt to better secure things. it worked out well.

here is me. :-) im using the big turret lathe.

here i am turning it at 66RPM. The volt meter reads 3 volts. My air gap is kinda wide still. I might try this again with it decreased. I might get better results.

here is a better shot of how i clamp the test coil in to the swing arm. This makes it very easy to position once it is clamped.

This is a good equation for figuring out RPM and frequency. I obviously can read frequency with my meter so i didnt really need this. It is however, handy when you are dealing with multiple coils (with a single coil, you can read frequency directly). my test data is in the box. I will wire this stator in star, so I can say the following:

  1. RPM = 3vac x 3 coils x 1.73 = 15.57
  2. RPM = 4vac x 3 coils x 1.73 = 20.76
This falls a little short of my expectations. I wanted this machine to cut in at around 75 RPM. As it is, it looks like it will cut in at aprox 95-100 RPM. I need to find a way of winding my coils a little tighter and i think i can fit the right amount of wire in. I also want to shrink the airgap a little. I think this will make a big difference.

having fun as allways!!  :-)
RoyR

i played with coils last night.. | 10 comments (10 topical)

Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#1)
by DanB on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 09:47:42 AM MST

Excellent Roy!!

(I'm right on your tail now... we have two machines almost just like this underway!)

Are you considering that you're probably reading RMS AC voltage - or some approximation depending on your meter?  It might be interesting to take your reading through a rectifier with a known voltage drop and measure DC.

When I built mine - I made this mistake... the AC meter suggested I'd be cutting in around 80 rpm... once rectified I realized I was cutting in at more like... 50 rpm (and the blade stalled very badly).

"This coil is made with 2 strands of 14AWG wire. There are 47 turns. The hole in the center of the coil is large enough for a magnet to pass through with out covering other windings. In the end i might have to shrink the center a little. I know it will lead to slight losses, but as i stand now, I dont think i can squeeze the right amout of wire in to the coil with out it being too wide (i need 4 or 5 more turns). my other option, is to make the coil thicker or use smaller wire. i really dont want to do either. i havent decided what to do about this yet."

I always make the "compromise" of shrinking the height of the coil a bit....  if its a 3" tall magnet I usually make the hole 2.5" or something....  
It's a compromise .... on one side the coil is perhaps less than ideal in shape and it migth cost us a bit of voltage, on the otherside... it fits, and the resistance will be less.  We could use finer wire and perhaps get a better coil shape - but I have the feeling that some compromise can be made here for thicker wire - lower resistance -and a hole in the middle of the coil which is perhaps just a touch smaller than ideal.

I think (could be wrong!) that your better off to shrink the coil slightly, than you are to consider going with lighter wire, or a wider airgap.

Mine (again, a 12 volt machine with a 14' prop) had 24 windings of 4 strands of #14 wire... so its about the same.  But -  mine did still have a stall problem and in the  end I had to open the airgap up to almost 7/8" to get it running well with the 14' prop.

Lots of fun!  I'll be working on an almost identical machine today...
(Love your lathe!)

Theres no way the magnet would pass through the hole in the middle of the coils I made for mine.

The ultimate solution perhaps is use a larger disk next time...  but I have a feeling what you're doing will end  up as an alternator suitable for a 15 or 16' prop.



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#2)
by electronbaby on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 10:07:37 AM MST

Thanks Dan!! I think i will be shrinking the coil height a little. Like you said,.. i think there has to be a compromise here. I tried using the swing arm to pull the coil out from between the rotors while it was spinning and i didnt see a decrease in voltage till i was aprox 1" out from normal position. This led me to believe that a shorter coil would work fine without a noticeable loss, allthough there would be some. Im going to shave down my winder core and try again with a shorter height. hopefully this makes things better. A friend of mine has given me two 10 lb. spools of #14 so i have plenty of wire to play with now  :-D  Gluing the coils together with crazy glue is a wonderful way to do this. The coils come out very solid and exactly 1/2" all the way around. It will be easy to get the stator to be 1/2" thick. Then i can drop my airgap down. My original test coil only turned out 3/16" too big on either side and I think they can be made to fit nicely by shrinking the height slightly.  As for RMS values,... i am using an RMS Fluke 87 for testing. It would be neat to see what the DC would look like through a rectifier... maybe i will try that next round of tests. Ill post more when i get more data.  :-)

RoyR
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#3)
by DanB on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 10:13:08 AM MST

yes, then you have a true RMS meter, and your "peak" voltage I believe is about 40% more than what your meter shows...  so for cutin voltage keep that in mind(this seems especially important on 3 phase machine.. more so than w/single phase).

I bet if you take that coil at 66 rpm (where it says 3 volts) and rectify it (there goes 1.4 volts) you'll wind up with about 2.5 volts or so DC.  So I think you may have about the right number of windings there for a good cutin speed.

[ Parent ]



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#4)
by electronbaby on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 10:25:07 AM MST

:-)   i know... ill keep that in mind. Im going to run through some more calculations...

say @ 66 rpm: 3VAC rms x 3 coils x 1.414 (peak) x 1.73 (star) = 22.01VAC peak   - 1.4V (rectifier)   = 20.61

for 86 RPM = 4vac rms x 3 coils x 1.414 (peak) x 1.73 (star) = 29.35VAC peak   - 1.4v
(rectifier) = 27.95v  thats better!!  :-)

I think your right about 3 phase relying more so on the peak value of the waveform.

hope i did that right. Some one else chime in and correct me if im wrong  :-P  

RoyR
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#5)
by DanB on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 10:36:47 AM MST

yes, I think it's in the ballpark.

It also makes sense (again) to shrink the coils a bit in height and stick with the heaviest possible wire.

If you poke a Gaussmeter around in one of these dual rotor machines..  you realize that the strongest field is in towards the center of the magnets and it gets a bit weaker towards the outside.  (this applies both to the height, and the width) - so making the hole in the middle of the coil smaller than the magnet only slightly compromises the output from those center-most windings I think and puts the middle - and outer windings in a more optimal location.  It also reduces resistance by decreasing the amount of wire in each coil.  If you do that.. then 50 windings should fit in the mould.

My mould for this machine was 17" in diameter - I think you may be wise to push that out to 18.  On mine... the 3 studs that hold the stator on were close enough that the magnets were fairly strongly attracted and I had to change them out for stainless allthread and stainless nuts.  It was also close enough on mine, that the drag from eddy currents induced in the hardward (holding the stator down) was significant when I only had 1 rotor on the machine.  When I added the 2nd rotor that went away almost completely.

Lots of fun!  I've got the spindle/yaw/tail bearing finished for two of these right now, and the magnet rotors machined... and magnets layed out on one.  Today I'll cast the magnet rotors for one machine and perhaps start on the stator.  I'm fairly sure that 48 - 50 windings will be perfect judging from my last machine (and your tests here) so I'll not be testing coils I don't think.  so.. I may get a good start on a stator today!
Fun day ahead!

[ Parent ]



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#6)
by electronbaby on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 10:43:12 AM MST

have fun Dan!! im jealous :-P   i wont get to work on my machine for a couple more days.  Because of the sheer weight of the rotor assembly, i am thinking im going to make the frame/yaw/tail assembly from scratch rather than use the volvo strut tower. The bearings and hub will still be from a volvo. I also dont have another strut tower!!  I either have to wait till i can get one, or play around with the idea of making it from scratch. I have enough materials though  :-)  time will tell. good luck on the stator.  :-)

Have Fun!!
RoyR
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#7)
by DanB on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 10:46:19 AM MST

Yes, i agree on that...
I only used the very bottom of the strut tower on these machines (the part with the spindle) - the yaw bearing is of 2.5" pipe, much stronger.  

I think I'm perhaps pushing the limits with my 14' machine using the strut tube as a yaw bearing.  It will definitely wear out much faster than these new ones which are of pipe.

[ Parent ]



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#8)
by RobD on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 04:01:54 PM MST

Nice lathe and job. Is the magnet plate alu. or steel? RobD



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#9)
by electronbaby on Fri Apr 02, 2004 at 05:20:10 PM MST

The magnet rotors are 1/2" thick steel I cut out of a 4' x 8' sheet. They are 14" in diameter and they are heavy.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/3/22/102529/026

Aluminum would not work because it is non magnetic. You need a material that can return the magnetic flux to the adjacent magnets.

RoyR
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]



Re: i played with coils last night.. (none / 0) (#10)
by scoraigwind on Sat Apr 03, 2004 at 01:40:14 PM MST

I agree that you can go a little smaller on the hole in the middle.  Also consider what the outer turns of the coil are doing.  I do no have th full geometry  but the outer turns may be going into the magnets next door and losing effect that way.  Also they are a lot longer than the inner ones, so may not be worth much in comparison.

I try to put the centres of the coil legs on top of two opposite magnets, but they should maybe be closer together than that when you consider the extra resistance of those outer turns.

Hugh Piggott http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk



i played with coils last night.. | 10 comments (10 topical)
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