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A/C waste heat water heating


By jt72, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sat Apr 24th, 2004 at 12:15:49 PM MST
Any experience with desuperheaters?

I've been considering installing a heat transfer device (desuperheater) on the refrigerant return of our central A/C.  These things take the waste heat and transfer it to water which is circulated to the hot water heater.  I've done quite a bit of research on the web and it looks like a great way to conserve some energy but I've yet to encounter anyone who has any experience with these things.  Also, I can't find anyone who will sell one to the general public.  They all seem to be sold by plumbing and HVAC wholesalers who only work with dealers and installers.  Anyone had any experiece with one of these?  What can you tell me and does anyone know a source for one?

Thanks,
Jim

A/C waste heat water heating | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: A/C waste heat water heating (none / 0) (#1)
by franknbuger on Sat Apr 24th, 2004 at 06:13:04 PM MST
(User Info)

       Hello.  Not sure what its like everwhere but in tx the HVAC parts and supplies are sold only to licenced tech's,its a protected bussiness. However there is an old saying ["If it walks like a duck & it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck"] get it? Or you could build your own.Coil some copper pipe around the condensing unit or the compresser and the other end y into the water heater inlet pipe. The condensing unit is the one out side,it mostly is around 200 or 250 deg F.Just dont block off too much of the radiator fins or it cant cool the house, or blow a freon fitting.Of course pull the fuse before starting.
                                           Frankenbuger  



Likely to raise your power bill. (none / 0) (#2)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Apr 24th, 2004 at 09:54:46 PM MST
(User Info)

I've been considering installing a heat transfer device (desuperheater) on the refrigerant return of our central A/C.  These things take the waste heat and transfer it to water which is circulated to the hot water heater.  I've done quite a bit of research on the web and it looks like a great way to conserve some energy but I've yet to encounter anyone who has any experience with these things.

It is likely to raise your power bill significanly - like by a large factor.

The power required by an air conditioner is proportional to the amount of heat it pumps times the temperature difference across which it pumps it.

Suppose your air conditioner is putting out 70 degree air and the outside temperature is 95.  You'll be pumping across a 25 degree differential.

Now suppose your water heater is set at 120 - the lowest it should EVER be when the house is occupied.  Now you're pumping the same amount of heat across a 50 degree temperature difference - and paying twice the electric bill to do it.  (Note that the air conditioner is probably more than half your electric bill, too.)

By the way:  If you have a dishwasher with the preheater turned off to save power - likely if you're off-grid and your electric plant is inadequate - you should have your water heater set to at LEAST 140, or you risk disease.



Re: Likely to raise your power bill. (none / 0) (#10)
by RatOmeter on Mon Apr 26th, 2004 at 11:29:41 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.rato.us

Now suppose your water heater is set at 120...

You're right, but the idea may have merit if he uses it strictly for pre-heating.  I'm still skeptical though because it would have to be done very carefully to avoid blocking the airflow through the condensor coils and thereby ruining the AC's efficiency.  

I think it would work well with a ground source heat pump (pre-heat from the hot side of the loop before it heads to the ground), but not with conventional AC.

-RatOmeter

[ Parent ]



Re: A/C waste heat water heating (none / 0) (#3)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Sun Apr 25th, 2004 at 05:42:34 AM MST
(User Info)

"The power required by an air conditioner is proportional to the amount of heat it pumps times the temperature difference across which it pumps it.

Suppose your air conditioner is putting out 70 degree air and the outside temperature is 95.  You'll be pumping across a 25 degree differential."

I didn't know that. I thought it was more like the power to run the fan and to pump a pressure through a compresser, tubing, and radiators. Since you are still runing the same motor and pressure though the same hardware I always figured the only extra cost to be pumping the water across the heated radiator to extract as much heat as possable.

So kinda what your saying is if your house is 100 degrees and the coils outside are in the shade (cooler) you use more electric then if the coils are in the sun (hotter)? And you would use the most electric if you bury the coils in the ground which would cool them even more?

You might be right, but to me that doesn't make any sense at all, then what is the purpose of heat pumps? Wouldn't it just be cheaper to use all electric heat then following that theory and toss out the compresser and extra motor? Then mount the airconditonair indirect sun so it stays hot?

Now my house gets over 100f in the summer at times, so to cool it to 80f I should use a HOT air conditioner mounted in the sun and I use alot less power to get that 20f difference than if I cool it and mount it in the shade, or even bury the radiator in a tank of cold watter?

One thing to consider though, perhaps is the missing factor, the unit runs a shorter time to produce the same temp difference, or it does more total work in the same amount of time. Let's say I want my house at 80f and it is 100f now. I need 20f in cooling capacity total. SO if I have a unit cooling at 40f in theory I think it should run half as long (roughly) as a unit cooling at only 20f which I would think should run almost constantly. Either should drop the inside temps 20f total.

Or I can get more work from the colder unit and drop the temps to 60f using it constanatly at the 40f max, whereas I would never get below 80f with the 20f unit.

So I think in the long run I would be better off either getting more work from the same unit, or I would use less power because it only runs half as long.

I am planning to cool my air conditioner this year, either using water or building a custom unit and moving the radiators. But I have no data to compare it too for any power usage differances. Although I actually need more cooling from the same unit, not doing it to lower power usage which would be nice too though.

.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: A/C waste heat water heating (none / 0) (#4)
by nothing to lose (nothingtolose175 at yahoo.com) on Sun Apr 25th, 2004 at 05:55:18 AM MST
(User Info)

How do you edit your own postings?
I think I read the earlier post in reverse and just caught my mistake! :(

To heat the water just put all the hot water lines on the exhaust side of the raditator! You don't heat the raditor, it still gets ambient temp air, the hotter air leaving the radiator flows over the water lines to heat those. Don't block the air flow!

Don't put the hot water lines on the intake side of the radiator, you may heat the air hotter than ambient temps which would result in lower cooling effcientcy of the radiator.

I think I misread the post earlier, SORRY! I was thinking cooling the radiator and the post was reffering to heating it I think. I do agree if you heat it that is bad!

.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: A/C waste heat water heating (none / 0) (#7)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sun Apr 25th, 2004 at 04:06:58 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

unfortunately at this time there is no way to edit comments...
Admin can edit postings, but not comments.  The only thing we can do with comments is delete them.  Along with many other things... this will probably get sorted out someday!

[ Parent ]


Re: A/C waste heat water heating (none / 0) (#5)
by franknbuger on Sun Apr 25th, 2004 at 08:27:00 AM MST
(User Info)


   Hello.  You can boil water [212D.f.] for 10-15 and still not kill 100% of the bacteria and such arounds.If you are concerned about killing germs with 120-140 D.F.water that is not going to happen,there is a subtance called clorine bleach that will kill anything large or small.I can only stand about 100* water on my skin without being uncomfortable thats what I set mine at....The job of the air conditioner is to remove heat.Super heat to be exact.When this heat carrying "freon" reaches the compressor,the pressure is incresed to 200--275 PSI.This is what makes the gas so hot.It has to be this hot so it can give up the "super heat" it picked up inside the building.So the radiator on the outside will always be hot if the being used.There is where the "free" heat comes from.Tapping into this would save you money in the summer,see 1st post.
                          Frankenbuger.



Re: A/C waste heat water heating (none / 0) (#6)
by finnsawyer on Sun Apr 25th, 2004 at 10:22:25 AM MST
(User Info)

I've had two heat pump furnaces for heating and cooling my houses.  Both took heat from well water and "pumped" it up to heat the air in the house when heating.  When cooling the cycle was reversed.  Heat was taken from the air and "pumped" into the "waste" water.  The heat on the high temperature high pressure refrigerant line has to go somewhere.  In my second (present) heat pump some of that goes through a heat exchanger (coil) that heats water from the water heater. It's great and works on either the heating or cooling cycle.  It does increase my heating cost, but I save more on the electric cost of heating my water.
So, it can be done and is effective, but its not easy.  Contact a heating contractor for advice.

By the way, an air to air heat pump or air conditioner cools more efficiently when the external unit is in the shade (cooler).

 
GeoM



Tube in Shell (none / 0) (#8)
by wdyasq on Sun Apr 25th, 2004 at 08:10:08 PM MST
(User Info)

I read some of the comments and need to add a fact or two.  

Any opening of a refrigeration system is subject to federal regulation.  

Tube in Shell heat exchangers have been used since the 1930's to supply hot water from air-conditioning systems in TEXAS.  I'm sure they have been used elsewhere.  I think Phillip Hobson 'patened' such a device in the last 15 years or so. Please don't try to bring up  a 'prior art' discussion.

You don't cool 95 degree air down to 75 degrees.  The exchanger temperature is normally 40* or more lower than what you are trying to have as a 'room temperature'. The temperature at the head of the compressor will go well over values needed to heat water.  It will also LOWER energy consumption for cooling.

Installers of air-conditioners are normally quite IGNORANT of such devices.  AND, new stuff will always be slow to be adapted.  ANY problem to a newly installed system will be attributed to the UNKNOWN device (read that as 'I ain't seen that before).  The installer doesn't care about about your electricity bill, he cares about getting paid and not having 'call backs'.

I was fortunate in having a friend who learned refrigeration before WWII.  His father was in the refrigeration also.  There is very little 'new' in the world of energy transfer. Good research will yirld a lot of information.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen



Re: A/C waste heat water heating (none / 0) (#9)
by brock (nevermab at uwgb dot edu) on Mon Apr 26th, 2004 at 08:11:39 AM MST
(User Info)

It works great.  I bought two "heat exchangers" off ebay two summers ago.  They were meant to attach to your water heater, and then when you need hot water they kick on and heat the water and give you cool air.  They were installed in a bunch of military housing in Hawaii and had good results.  I have an indoor pool which I heat with the two heat pumps and it cools the house, of course the only time I do this is when I need the cooling.  In summer my electric bill didn't go up at all, but my gas went to nothing (pool boiler didn't run).  I just disliked the idea of the heat being thrown outside when I could use it to heat my pool water.

It is true though that the hotter the water gets the less cooling you get, or I should say the longer the heat-pump will have to run.  In other words if the water is 80 and your house is 80 it might take 1 hour, but if your water is 120 and the house is 80 it might take 2 hours, not a big deal if your displacing a regular AC unit though.  If I only had the hot water tank I would probably use a large one 80gal or two of them and use the heat pump as pre heat, unless you don't use much water.  I know at my brother-in-laws in Hawaii, the heat pump ran for 1.5 hours after one shower, and with 4 of us taking showers it took a long while to heat back up.  But then again it made the house cooler  :)



Re: A/C waste heat water heating (none / 0) (#11)
by JW on Mon Apr 26th, 2004 at 02:57:40 PM MST
(User Info)

  heres somthing that sounds like whats being described here. Its a tube-in-tube A/C condenser for a marine application(or a boat). since its not very practical to to use air to freon on the condenser with an application that needs compact size(and plenty water is avalable). Bear in mind if such a liquid heat exchanger is used in series, you will have to add more freon than the system normally holds. But i would be wary of this,out of convetional use such as heatpump mode.

 That sure is interesting about the federal regulation in ANY A/C system,I studied A/C system design in collage, and then became a certified ASE master technition, never remeber anything about that. I could be wrong thou, In the 1930's the situations related to ac systems was pretty intense,them guys using propane and butane as the working fluid in the systems. Before other refridgerants (HFC's) were developed.

-JW

[ Parent ]



A/C waste heat water heating | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial)
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