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Automotive Differential speed increasers


By VermontMaple, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Mon Apr 26th, 2004 at 12:22:13 PM MST
In the early 70's Mother Earth News  Featured several designs using used car rear ends

I was wondering if anyone here remembers those and more importantly has any experience with this sort of unit. My Ametek motor needs to be driven at or over 1700 rpm to get descent charging for my 48 volt system. On those systems the prop was mounted to the axle much as the dual rotor style everyone here seems to be building. But on their unit the rear end differential was retained , the other axle welded to a fix position at the tail  and the generator attached to the drive shaft input. This resulted in a speed up of about 7:1. I guess the down side was oil seals,... and weight in the air. I don't want to use belts for my speed increaser (I just don't like belts). With 7:1 ratio I only should need 250 to 350 RPMs, which sounds more reasonable.
Anyone out there seen or used anything like this?
Automotive Differential speed increasers | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#1)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Mon Apr 26th, 2004 at 01:08:51 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I think perhaps it has merit in some machines that are very slow and have gobs of torque.  But I think the losses in something like a car's grearbox, or differential are significant and at higher rpm it would be a huge % of your output.  (unless its a very large and powerful machine in which case they may be good components to include...)



Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#2)
by RogerAS (theropod at yahoo dot com) on Mon Apr 26th, 2004 at 01:53:43 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi,

First of all the differential from an auto works like this:

The driveline turns 1 revolution, the ring gear is driven from the pinion at a specific ratio (ie 4:11. 3:25 etc.). The ring gear interacts with the spiders and drives the axles. The axles turn in proportion to the pinion, like 11 revolutions for 4 turns of the driveline in a 4:11 rearend. MOST differentials do need the "off" axle locked to do what you want. So to gear up the speed of the alternator the axle side is where it needs to go, and the prop or input to the driveline side. Be aware that without some type of pumping the lubrication will not be right, but that can be overcome easily. NASCAR rearends have pumping systems for cooling the grease driven off the driveline.

I would not use this setup for anything other than a BIG Savonious type mill. Or maybe a BIG hydro system.

RogerAS
Roger AS
8 Years off-grid & counting



Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#12)
by dudevato (dudevato@yahoo.com) on Wed Apr 28th, 2004 at 03:41:32 PM MST
(User Info)

Roger, you posted earlier: (((The axles turn in proportion to the pinion, like 11 revolutions for 4 turns of the driveline in a 4:11 rearend.)))  This is wrong. A 4:11 rearend will make one revolution for each 4.11 revolutions of the drive shaft. You find the 'ratio' by dividing the number of teeth in the ring gear by the number in the pinion. As a rule the cars with automatic transmissions will have a higher rearend ratio than the same car with a stickshift. Higher ratios are expressed with lower numeric numbers. Lower ratios are expresed with higher numbers.  A 4:11 rearend is lowerer than a 3:70.

[ Parent ]


Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#3)
by N9WOS on Mon Apr 26th, 2004 at 03:22:10 PM MST
(User Info)

Just some food for thought.

Newer 4WD vehicles, and cars do no have a full axel across the back.

The back kinda looks like the front, as far as drive train goes.
Two half shafts, one to each wheal.
There is a  gear box in the middle that the two half shafts plug in to.
And a drive shaft that goes to the gear box from the front.

Rear gear box is about a foot or so wide, and a foot or so tall.
And some times up to two feet long.
It usually has two taper bearing that support the rear differential.

If you feed a rod through the unit with the blade ran to that,
And have the differential function disabled, and you will have a nice
1 to 4 (or close) gear box.

Just look at the newer AWD vehicles coming into the junk yards.



Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#4)
by bob g on Mon Apr 26th, 2004 at 09:38:33 PM MST
(User Info)

the previous posts relating to about 3:1 to as much as around 4:1 are correct, except"

if you lock one axle and force the differential to power the pinion thru the spider gears you will double the ratio and get anywhere from 6:1 to around 8:1

as for lubrication, as long as the pinion is parallel to the ground such as it was in the car, the ring gear will pickup the lube and circulate it as designed. you also could go to a lighter gear lube to cut losses, but be sure to have a GL-5 rated lube in any event as the ring and pinion gears mesh in a wiping motion, thus the need for the friction modifier that GL-5 affords.

as for friction losses you are likely going to lose around 10% or slighly more, if you have a sufficiently large rotor, maybe this is an acceptable amount of loss.

you might also consider either the cog belt (timing belt) or a serpentine multigroove belt drive, either of which is more efficient and lighter, and require no lube. If you incorporate a tensioner from a car, you should get pretty good life out of it with little slippage loss on serpentine drives, and no slippage of course on cog belts.

as for power capability, the serpentine, microgroove belt in the 8 rib variety will handle approx 20 hp or so, and live to tell about it.

also if you use the microgroove belt, they can be driven from the back side, eliminating the need for a large grooved drive pulley, you could use a 20 inch in diameter drive hub with a smooth outer diameter, run the belt over it backwards to contact the hub, then take it over the driven pulley on your alternator, and on the opposite side run the idler to provide the tension and auto takeup of the belt.

just remember to try and get at least 40% of the pulley in contact with the belt, either driven or drive, 50% is even better.

on the plus side is if you run the belt as i have described, it can be changed out without removeing any shafts or the alternator, all you would have to do is pry the idler back and swap the belt.

microgroove belts are common on all cars these days, and started out as drive belts on detroit diesels on GMC trucks back in the late 60's. It is not uncommon to see them run well over 100,000 miles on a truck.

personally i think that this is a better option for you.

bob g



Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#8)
by Victor on Tue Apr 27th, 2004 at 06:18:53 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Bob,

 You said "the previous posts relating to about 3:1 to as much as around 4:1 are correct, except"

if you lock one axle and force the differential to power the pinion thru the spider gears you will double the ratio and get anywhere from 6:1 to around 8:1"

 Isn't this backwards? I think by locking one axle and driving the other you halve the ratio to the pinion.

 If in a car at a constant driveshaft rpm, When a wheel  breaks traction it spins faster as the other wheel stops. So if you drive the differential backwards you  have a lower ratio with one wheel locked.

 The way I've heard of people using differentials is to weld the spider gears solid.

Victor

[ Parent ]



Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#5)
by erne on Tue Apr 27th, 2004 at 06:55:00 AM MST
(User Info)

If you go and look at my mill in the pictures you will see that I am using a 2 1/2 ton diferental on it. it is 24 feet across the blades. I used a aeromotor and marked up all the dementions to get tail air opening etc. It starts producing in about 5 mph wind and feathers about 25. you need to be sure you get the ofset right for feathering.--erne



Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#7)
by VermontMaple on Tue Apr 27th, 2004 at 02:38:55 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Erne!!
Thats what I was looking for . Someone actually doing it. Any problems or pittfalls I should be aware of? What make differential is it? are you using belts & pulleys to couple the drive shaft connection to the generator? I calculate you should be doing about 40 RPM on your turbine at 5 mph and about 200 rpm at 25 mph is that correct? what ratio is the differential ?
Thanks you any extra input!!


[ Parent ]


Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#6)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Tue Apr 27th, 2004 at 10:56:54 AM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

to erne:

is this the one you are speaking about?

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/60/e_alt.JPG

Looks really interesting.
Which kind of alternator are you using?

In any case I think that a car differential
is one viable alternative for big machines.

You can take the power
all the way down on the
the earth by using axles if you are
using a car differential.
And if you'll use
a second hand whole rear axle
of a small truck you'll
get ready made bearings
of the wheel for the
wind rotor cheaply.

- Hannu



Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#9)
by erne on Wed Apr 28th, 2004 at 09:10:34 AM MST
(User Info)

I posted some new photos in the photo section. the machine has a 3 phase alt off an old wind farm in cal. It is 18 kw and has a mickey mouse controler on it that isn't quite right.--erne



Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#10)
by finnsawyer on Wed Apr 28th, 2004 at 11:14:02 AM MST
(User Info)

How about planetary drives?  You can find them at salvage yards from junked 4 wheel drive tractors.  
GeoM


Re: Automotive Differential speed increasers (none / 0) (#11)
by N9WOS on Wed Apr 28th, 2004 at 01:59:25 PM MST
(User Info)

Ow.... On that mark.

Automatic transmissions usually have
two or so planetary gear sets in them.
Nice looking ones too.

The only problem with them is you will have
to make your own gear box to mount them in.
(ie) machining work.

They would be versatile and far more
efficient than a truck rear end.

[ Parent ]



Automotive Differential speed increasers | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)
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