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new blade tip starts in lightest winds


By iFred, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:30:24 AM MST
new concept blade tip control

Such as nice light wind day, new generator, and no rotation??? ummm, I think i'll fix that.....


New generator

The one in the back with three blades not moving...to light a wind...
This pic shows the new genny in rotation with the new angles on the blade tips.

New concept!!!! Blade tips are cut, refitted and adjusted to produce starting rotation.. The angle WORKS FANTASTIC! Starts in lightest winds and goes fast!

Blade Tip Control has possiblitys....

www.internetfred.com

new blade tip starts in lightest winds | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#1)
by windstuffnow on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:23:27 AM MST

  Pretty slick iFred!!  When I was working on the "Free wing" concept some time back I allowed the blades to run free with stops. ( wings mounted in bearings ).  The angle would be adjusted by the wind and rotational speed.  Once in motion the blade would run very close to zero depending on the incomming wind.  This may be something you could incorporate into the angled tip idea.  Let it run free with stops once the blade was up to speed the wind would adjust the tips to run at around zero for high speed.  

Fun Stuff!!!

Keep up the great work!
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#4)
by iFred on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:05:58 PM MST


Thanks Ed, I like the idea, just not sure how to implement. are you suggesting that gravity be used to pull the blade tip out?? not sure I understand.
Thanks

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]


Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#7)
by windstuffnow on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:51:31 PM MST

  On my free wing, the piviot is set at the lift point.  The trailing edge catches the wind and straightens the blades dependent on blade speed and wind pressure. The more forward speed you have the less angle on the wings.  When there is little to no wind the blades will go to full angle until it starts spinning.  Mine used the entire blade and was pivioted from the center mount.  Also the blades weren't twisted. You can also control the rate of change by using a "trim tab" similar to an aircraft.   It also works well for feathering in gusts.  When a gust hits it the wings go to an extreem angle and maintains a fairly steady or slightly reduced rpm until it recovers.  So instead of speed it converts the power to torque.  Fun Project

Have F u n
Windstuff Ed
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#2)
by RobD on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:23:32 AM MST

Fred,
Aren't the blades stalling at a lower rpm when the wind picks up?
RobD



Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#3)
by iFred on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:04:09 PM MST


The wind has picked up in the last few hours since my post, yep, it's stalling on the high end winds.. i'll have to fix that.... LOL... Any one got a simple a solultion?
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]


Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#5)
by kww on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:07:43 PM MST

Interresting idea, are those tips hinged, maybe very lightly spring loaded to hold the extra angle at 0 rpm?  
Kevin



Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#6)
by iFred on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:35:26 PM MST

How about this guys, works on centerpedial/fugal force to move a weight to move the arm that moves the tip???
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#8)
by whiskey on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:01:16 PM MST

Good work Fred, have a look at http://www.olsenwings.dk/geninf.htm
Those guys have some info that may be of use to you. I wouldnt bother mailing them though, they never respond!

Also look at the old Dunlite turbines, they used weights near the hub to alter the entire blade profile. After I saw the inside of their hub I forgot about trying it, very complex and far too much to go wrong. A French manfr (name escapes me)has a simpler system that employes a weight, cam and spring mechanism. The hub does need some serious machining and mother of all bearings to make it reliable.

Happy experimenting, hope you crack it....the problem I mean not the blade :)

Whiskey




Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#9)
by RobD on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:57:56 PM MST

Fred,
This is such an interesting idea and just what I'm looking for in my low wind designs. I'm sure if we all put our heads together we can come up with a way to change the pitch. I'm wondering if the whole blade shouldn't shift, it might be easier to implement.
RobD



Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#10)
by hvirtane on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 10:45:17 AM MST

RobD:
I'm sure if we all
put our heads together
we can come up with a way
to change the pitch.
I'm wondering if
the whole blade shouldn't shift,
it might be easier to implement.

I agree.
Let's start making plans for simple
pitch control mechanisms.

What about springs, which are keeping
the pitch angles big and then centrifugal
forces taking pitch angles small,
when the blades start moving fast?

- Hannu



Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#11)
by scoraigwind on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:48:29 PM MST

"What about springs, which are keeping
the pitch angles big and then centrifugal
forces taking pitch angles small,
when the blades start moving fast? "

That's how the chinese buid their machines.  It's very clever, but the springs do not last and the bearing surfaces wear out.

I prefer to build direct drive machines with no iron in the stators.  Then you don't really hav a problem to begin with.
Hugh Piggott http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
[ Parent ]



Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#12)
by RobD on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 10:46:33 AM MST

Hannu,
Right now I'm building the ironless core machines here and designing electronics to change the wiring configurations as the wind picks up. I like low wind machines that are designed for a specific purpose. The best solution might be a flexible blade that deforms to a to a lower angle as the wind picks up. I'm open to new ideas.
RobD

[ Parent ]


Re: new blade tip starts in lightest winds (none / 0) (#13)
by hvirtane on Fri Apr 30, 2004 at 02:46:46 PM MST

a)

I think that actually
the easiest solution
for HAWTs might be
to use many blades
something like 6 - 12
as Claus Nybroe is using.

Then the speed of the rotor is not changing
much even if the speed of the wind changes.

---

b)

Then I'm thinking according to our experiences
here and according to some other peoples'
experiences that it might be good to
use such kind of blades, which are wider
on the tips than on the roots contrary
to the common practice.

Recent theories such as the so-called GGS model
as well are supporting those views:  

---

From an article:

Alexander N. Gorban  
Professor and Deputy Director,
Institute of Computational Modeling,
Krasnoyarsk, Russia Assoc. Mem. ASME
Alexander M. Gorlov
Professor Emeritus,
Hydro-Pneumatic Power Laboratory
Northeastern University,
Boston, MA 02115
e-mail: amgorlov@coe.neu.edu Mem. ASME
Valentin M. Silantyev
Graduate Student,
Department of Mathematics,
Northeastern University,
Boston, MA 02115:

Limits of the Turbine Efficiency
for Free Fluid Flow

...

The most interesting finding
of our analysis is that
the maximum efficiency of
the plane propeller is
about 30 percent for free fluids.
This is in a sharp contrast
to the 60 percent given
by the Betz limit,
commonly used now for decades.
It is shown that the Betz
overestimate results
from neglecting the curvature
of the fluid streams.
We also show that
the three-dimensional
helical turbine is more efficient
than the two-dimensional propeller,
at least in water applications.
Moreover, well-documented
tests have shown that
the helical turbine
has an efficiency of 35 percent,
making it preferable
for use in free water currents.
@DOI: 10.1115/1.1414137#

...

The principal assumption of
the Betz model was that
the fluid flow remains rectilinear
when passing through the turbine
and maintains a uniform distribution
of the fluid pressure on the turbine.
Such a distributed load leads
to overestimating the forces
and torque applied to
the turbine and, as a result,
to overestimating the turbine's
power and its efficiency.
In reality, the fluid streams
are deflected from the rectilinear
direction near the barrier,
changing their motion to curvilinear
trajectories and reducing
their pressure on the turbine,
as can be seen in Fig. 1~b!:
By taking account of
the curvilinear trajectories
for the streams,
one obtains a more correct
turbine power and efficiency limit.

...

1.2 Suggested Model for Curvilinear Flow.
A new model - called
the GGS model for plane turbine
in free flow with curvi-linear
streams is shown in Fig. 1~b.
Comparison between the Betz
and the GGS models demonstrates
the following.
In the Betz model, Fig. 1~a,
the resultant force is
applied to each propeller
at the center of pressure,
which is a distance R/2  
from the axis of the turbine,
where R is the turbine radius.
In the GGS model, Fig. 1~b!,
the resultant force is applied
at the center of pressure
that is calculated to be
a distance 0.37R from
the turbine axis,
much closer to the turbine shaft.
In both models,
the lift and drag components
of the resultant forces
develop the torque that
rotates the turbine.
It is easily seen that
the torque is greater
in the Betz model
than in the GGS model
as a result of the difference
in the lever arms.

Laboratory tests and
measured efficiencies
of operating turbines
often confirm that
the Betz limit is too high
for both hydraulic
and wind plane turbines.
In particular,
comparative performance
of various hydraulic turbines
in free flows shown
in Fig. 2 supports the
thesis that the Betz limit
highly overestimates the
propeller capacity
when used in the water.

The same comparison leads
to the conclusion that
the three-dimensional
helical turbine would
be preferable to any plane
propeller in free water flows.
The non-constrained helical
turbine has exhibited
an efficiency of 35 per-cent,
for example,
in well-documented
hydraulic tests,
and is superior to other
known hydraulic turbomachines.
The mathematical formulation
of the problem for plane turbine
in free flow, its definitions,
and exact solution
will follow after Section 2.

---

So:

if using horizontal axis
wind machines
I think that to make
the blade tips wide
might help.

---

c)

On the other hand I've
started to suspect that
in general well-designed
VAWTs might outperform
HAWTS...

There are other articles
besides the above
referred supporting this view.
Especially
the well-known (?) book
by Dr. Johnson,
which I have often mentioned
here is one
important text.

d)

I have started to think that
basically Hugh with his view
about 'no-iron' generators must be right.
If the magnets are cheap enough
something like a dual disk rotor
alternator for a slow
running multiblade or VAWT
might be the best
solution...  

- Hannu



new blade tip starts in lightest winds | 13 comments (13 topical)
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