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New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record
By DougSelsam, Section Homebrewed Electricity Posted on Mon Apr 5th, 2004 at 06:49:18 PM MST
World Record Power Output from 7 foot diameter turbine

Hi to all:
If you were at Global Windpower 2004 in Chicago last week you may
have already seen these pictures, and we have some preliminary data
taken with the setup conservatively adjusted to furl back at
relatively low wind speeds.
Even at this early stage I guess we have set the record for power
output from a 7 foot diameter horizontal axis turbine, by adding
more rotors to the driveshaft.
Please visit our website at:
http://www.selsam.com
This is the "3 kilowatt machine" funded by the California Energy
Commission, which looks like it is at least a 4 kilowatt machine
from the data we have so far. We have a peak of over 5 kilowatts.
1000 watts at 16 mph - it's a great low windspeed turbine.
It was great to see everyone at the conference.
We have been recognized as one of the 50 most innovative companies
in Southern California by the Los Angeles Regional Technology
Alliance.
Our website will soon have a new look, complete with animations and
more renderings by Michael Sanchez from Dreamworks.
More Rotors = More Power!
-Doug Selsam
Doug @ Selsam.com
http://www.selsam.com

New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (4.00 / 1) (#5)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 08:20:16 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

It is an interesting design Doug.

My thought - is the advantage is your running higher rpm so the altenrator may cost less. Perhaps in the future when "time tells" - other advantages will come fourth...

I can't really go for the "world record" bits though.... because to me, with a machine like this we should be talking about square feet of swept area - diameter is not really an issue in this case because the machine is a different animal completely from that which you are comparing it too. There is that company (in WA I think?) thats building a similar idea - 2 rotors, one behind the other. They seem a bit complex - but geez, they are building some big machines. I wish I could find that link - its kind of interesting!

So what sort of alternator are you using on there out of curiosity?

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#6)
by DougSelsam (Doug @ Selsam.com) on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 10:03:59 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.Selsam.com

Hi Dan I'm just saying it's a record to get people to pay attention...
It's two alternators - regular slotted lams for the stators and a drum with thin neo mags held in by a carbon fiber band...
-Doug
Douglas Selsam Selsam Innovations 2600 Porter Ave. Unit B Fullerton, CA 92833 Doug@Selsam.com http://www.selsam.com 714-992-5594
[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#9)
by TomW on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 10:39:59 AM MST
(User Info)

Doug;

Hi Dan I'm just saying it's a record to get people to pay attention...

I don't know about anyone else but that statement will cause me to doubt any statement you make from that point forward. Seems the best way to get people to pay attention is by stating facts and not using slimy marketing techniques to get them to take a look. Just my opinions and may not be held by others.

By the way I do like the design and think it has potential.

Cheers.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#10)
by DougSelsam (Doug @ Selsam.com) on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 11:18:40 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.Selsam.com

I respect what you are saying - OK tell me another 7 foot diameter turbine that gets that sort of power, including any turbine, ducted or non-ducted, vertical or horizontal axis, any place, any time, any number of rotors... See what I mean?
Douglas Selsam Selsam Innovations 2600 Porter Ave. Unit B Fullerton, CA 92833 Doug@Selsam.com http://www.selsam.com 714-992-5594
[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#11)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 12:04:14 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Well... actually your statement isn't completely accurate. The prop may only be 7ft in diameter, but you have seven of them. This comes out to about 270 sq ft of area or the equivilant of a single 18.5 ft prop. I believe an efficient 18.5 ft prop would end up making about 1600 watts in a 16 mph wind. This means your system is about 17% efficient.

I believe the Whisper 175 does a little better than this with only a 15 ft prop ( 175 sq ft area).

Don't take this in the wrong context, I admire your unique design and your dedication to making it come together. I'd hate to see it turned into the "wind tree" from making exadurated claims , although, you have a working prototype with numbers to back it up... far more than they had...

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#12)
by Gary D on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 12:10:07 PM MST
(User Info)

It's hard to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges when you have a different swept area. It's like having multiple machines on the same tower, except that they all are the same shaft. If you are claiming that with the same swept area no number of machines can equal your output, I'd bet there would be a LOT of takers!
I also like your design, but wouldn't want to be anywhere close if the front blades fly off due to the torque differences in high winds! Sometimes slower is better ( my 2 cents). Good luck with your testing. Gary D.

[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (4.00 / 1) (#8)
by KHB1 on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 10:12:21 AM MST
(User Info)

http://selsom.com
Check out the total web site he answers all the questions asked already.
Personaly I like the 18" model using model airplane propellers.
KHB1
As you slide down the banister of life may the splinters point the other way.

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#13)
by whiskey (itswhiskey at_ g_mail do t com) on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 01:39:13 PM MST
(User Info)

From the lack of answers, I can only drawn this conclusion.

The turbine had no effective furling, due to the fact of it producing more power when in so called furled mode. To my mind that means 'No furling at all'.

As a consequence the blades continue to:

Make more noise.
Generate more stress.
Suffer high cyclic loading.
Operate well outside any reasonable air speed range - with even less efficent than Ed's comments.

Has no controller - Not even a mention of one.

Tower stress testing has no been conducted - Nothing stated here either.
Shaft stress figures not seen, not done?

This is not a 7ft turbine, it CANNOT and SHOULD not be advertised as one. The claims attached ARE false and misleading. Ed, TomW and DanB have also seen the turbine for what it is not i.e what you claim it to be.

Unless you are honest in your claims to technical people on a technical forum, its unlikely the public will suffr any better. Unless you make some factual representations about your turbine, I fear it and you will fall into the same box as wind tree and many others like them down through the years.

Good luck.

Whiskey

[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#18)
by DougSelsam (Doug @ Selsam.com) on Wed Apr 7th, 2004 at 11:18:03 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.Selsam.com

Dear Whiskey:
Where is your sense of humor? :) Of course I realize I'm sweeping more area.
There have been a couple of ways to squeeze more power from a given diameter turbine - one is to add a duct or shroud, increasing the wind speed through the rotor, the way I am doing it is to add more rotors - just another way to skin the cat.
Yes all the stuff you say is true, and it is just a research project. It has hydraulic disc brakes for shutdown in storms. So far the furling technique works great up to about 45 mph...
-Doug
Douglas Selsam Selsam Innovations 2600 Porter Ave. Unit B Fullerton, CA 92833 Doug@Selsam.com http://www.selsam.com 714-992-5594
[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#14)
by Dave B on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 01:50:22 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.madbbs.com/users/bruggelog

Doug,
Very interesting design and I applaud your efforts. I understand your excitement but I would stay away from the "grey area" of advertising you are using and state the specs. as they are. Swept area vs. power is what any of us have, I hope you don't add another 7' rotor and call it a new record, trust me, as you have noticed already you will loose a great deal of respect and therefore interest in your project. Just my opinion and in know way an attempt to lessen your accomplishments, I'll be watching your progress. Dave B.

[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#1)
by BT Humble (bt_humble@bigpond.com) on Mon Apr 5th, 2004 at 07:21:45 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.humbletown.org

That's a very impressive piece of engineering!

On a serious note, were you just going for the 7-foot record or does this approach offer a better return on investment (in terms of initial cost, maintenance, etc.) than a single larger-diameter rotor?

BTH

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#2)
by Chagrin on Mon Apr 5th, 2004 at 10:51:33 PM MST
(User Info)

The problem with a large rotor is that you have to keep the RPMs low due to the limits at which the tip of the blades can travel (supersonic speeds, centrifugal force, dust hitting a fast-moving blade, etc.). Since you have low RPMs you require a gearbox and then lose a lot of power with that gearbox, not to mention the increased number of moving parts and maintenance involved.

[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#3)
by DougSelsam (Doug @ Selsam.com) on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 01:34:10 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.Selsam.com

Well the idea is definitely that more watts per dollar is desirable.
This is a research platform to prove the technology, to open the door to even more far-out designs, and hopefully it can also be developed into a product that everyone can use to maximize the dollar per watt spent on wind generated electricity. Meanwhile it just occurred to me that I guess we also set a record of sorts, and that sounds more exciting than bean counting so that's where I start to get your attention.
Doug Selsam
Doug@Selsam.com
http://www.selsam.com
Douglas Selsam Selsam Innovations 2600 Porter Ave. Unit B Fullerton, CA 92833 Doug@Selsam.com http://www.selsam.com 714-992-5594
[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#4)
by whiskey (itswhiskey at_ g_mail do t com) on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 07:31:22 AM MST
(User Info)

It would be more accurate to note in the description of the 'world record' that it has come from a 7ft diameter turbine utilising 7 sets of 3 blades. I would be very keen to see a regular hawt with 7ft blades and have 7 sets of 3 in the same plane and compare its output to yours. Then we have a more accurate model to base claims on. The total swept area of your wind turbine is obviously a tad more than what a 7ft blade covers.

Post some gen specs with power curve, I am interested in what you got and how you measured it. I build low rpm gens and most never see above 300rpm.

A low speed turbine outlasts any high speed counterpart and creates less noise, vibration and wont tear itself to bits over time. Physics, engineering and years of experience has told us those facts. I am still of the 'regular hawt' mind set and have utilised side ways furling for years. How will your turbine slow the blades down and take them out of the wind? even with your tilt arrangment I see blades now horizontal into the wind, where they are more efficient than tilted downwards in the normal operating mode. The first set of blades will experience great wind blast when they lift upwards, the bending stress will shorten their lifespan by a large margin. Cyclic loading is a silient, slow acting killer. Noise now will also come into play, nobody wants a noisey turbine. Small wind got a bad name because of that.

What part of the market do you see this turbine fitting into?

Have you got a controller designed?

To my mind, a complex turbine such as your design will need a custom controller to maximise energy harvest. I began building one for a vawt a few months ago and now I have it running on a hawt instead (couldnt find a suitable brake mechanism for the vawt). Energy capture in low winds has increased a great deal because the battery load on the gen is no longer 100% at all times anymore. The controller monitors turbine rpm and switches (solid state) the coils between star and delta based on an alogrithm developed for the blade/gen size. Then the load (battery) is gradually brought up in load in 100w (PWM) steps. As the wind speed increases, the controller increases load and now we have a balanced load and a much happier turbine that is matched if you like, to its load. Getting low wind speed power is far easier that way, and thats where most people want power, down low. For max output situations where the battery bank is charged, a dump load is switched in.

A fail safe is also essential. Should my controller fail, the windings will default to delta and full battery load is present. Makes me sleep easier at night. Power for the controller is taken from a super cap in the nacelle. It will happily power the controller for months without wind to charge it. During zero wind, the controller sleeps and consumes a few ua.

Have you monitored tower stress, there is a large wind loading animal on top!

Happy tuning.

Whiskey

[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#7)
by DougSelsam (Doug @ Selsam.com) on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 10:08:16 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.Selsam.com

That's amazing I'd love to have a controller like that
-Doug Selsam
Douglas Selsam Selsam Innovations 2600 Porter Ave. Unit B Fullerton, CA 92833 Doug@Selsam.com http://www.selsam.com 714-992-5594
[ Parent ]

Tip to Tip (none / 0) (#15)
by wdyasq on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 07:22:44 PM MST
(User Info)

The way I've measured rotors is "center to outside" or "Tip To Tip". Your rotor is more than 7' any way it can be logically measured.

Using that logic, the numbers change.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen

Re: Tip to Tip (none / 0) (#16)
by sully108 on Tue Apr 6th, 2004 at 09:47:09 PM MST
(User Info)

Beautiful design Doug. Keep on thinking of new ways to fly the bird.
If your intention was to get people to notice...I'd say you are successful already.

[ Parent ]

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#17)
by RobD on Wed Apr 7th, 2004 at 06:27:07 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.dsgnspec.com

It's a very interesting design Doug and I remember when you first introduced it here awhile back.
Personally I like the slow speed machines for home use and I don't see problems with low speed alternators, it's just a different design perspective. There is something that bothers me about your 'long pole' but I can't put my finger on it at this point. Maybe I have to adjust my thinking and this is always a good thing.
I also think it's unanimous that the false claims diminish your work, this is not a 7 foot machine.
I'm working on several designs to maximize low wind power like Whiskey and Ed (windstuff) and quite a few others are using my Star/delta switch with good results. Microcontrollers are allowing some very accurate contouring of blade/alternator configurations and I think the flexibility is greater with low speed machines than with high speed ones. My idea is to have more than one machine, several designed for low speed and one or two for high wind conditions instead of trying to get everything in one machine which I feel creates to many design limitations. I don't see, at this point, doing that with your machine.
Keep up the good work.
RobD

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#19)
by pwmvsi on Wed Apr 7th, 2004 at 03:21:22 PM MST
(User Info)

Doug,

Your machine harvests at low wind speed quite well but I have some pointed questions and a comment as a machine designer:

1) How much does your machine weigh in at? How many Pounds/KW at furling speed?

2) Footprint. How much horizontal real estate does it need including the the swept area of the horizantal shaft. What does it come to in m^2/kw at furling speed?

3) For optimum performance, does it require active control verses passive?

4) Mean Time Between Failures? Mean Time To Repair?

5) You are using Radial flux altinators vs Axial... This would jack your power density with axial flux machines and the price of such machines is coming down everyday in comparison to radial flux machines.

Those are my questions. Now for the comment and ain't goin to be kind (Please Camp Otherpower campers, dont flame on this one):

People on this board are honest with each other here even to the point of being painful at times due to the fact we *ARE* playing with electricity and rotating machinery here. Please dont claim a record breaker and then say you did it to get people attention in the same breath. That puts you on par to the young woman who faked her own kid knapping here Madtown, Wisconsin. How you handle yourself about that comment you made is up to you. Please continue your research, good luck and becareful about what you say. There are people who will come after you for comments like those.

Re: New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record (none / 0) (#20)
by JohnnieBumchin (johnniebumchin@hotmail.com) on Tue May 4th, 2004 at 09:40:57 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Doug,

A 4kW turbine using 7 sets of rotors on the one pole, angled down at 45degrees will only recieve sin45 of the windspeed..so thats 70% of the wind. Your blades are still blocking at least half of the ones behind even at this angle, so thats
0.5 x 0.7 = 0.35, 35%... Is that correct, is it??? or am i wrong??
How much would it cost for the homebrew version of the carbon fiber rod????
It says here http://www.energy.ca.gov/contracts/smallgrant/2003-02-21_awards_02-02.html that he got $75,000 to build a 3kW prototype, how many kW's could you guys make for $75,000?

Johnnie B
--Remember what Johnnie Bumchin says kids, it could save your life................
[ Parent ]

New Selsam Wind Turbine Sets Record | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial)

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