Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Rants & Opinion - Diaries - Our Products
Water heating system


By BurksFallsMan, Section Remote Living
Posted on Sun May 2nd, 2004 at 07:11:44 AM MST
Water Heater for Shower

Anyone willing to share some experience with Hot Water System for Shower?
I have no electricity (except the gennie), have propane heating-big tank, and small cooking propane stove on 20 lbs tank.
Summe is fun because allmost anything left on the sun warms up enough to get a good and long..... shower. Winter is defferent, I am sick of warming water and running upstairs to fill the tank. Any experiences with "on demand" heaters?
I am afraid of the propane heaters but I guess there is no much of a choice.
Water heating system | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#1)
by PaulJ on Sun May 2nd, 2004 at 08:30:40 AM MST
(User Info)

   I've lived with a few on-demand hot water units over the years. They've all been natural gas units, but I'm pretty sure jet size is the only alteration needed to run them on propane.

   They are very efficient compared with storage type units (solar excepted). We're a family of 4, in summer our gas bill for cooking and hot water is about AU$40 (US$30) for 2 months.

   Most of the units I've had were mounted on an outside wall. Winters here aren't cold enough to burst pipes. For outside installation the local standard specifies a distance of at least 1.2 metres (4 feet) from any window or corner, presumably so you don't suffocate on the exhaust.

   I lived in a house many years ago with an indoor unit that was not properly flued. You could smell the exhaust building up in the bathroom. This made the unit even more efficient, as we were all too scared to spend more than a couple of minutes in the shower.

   You're right to be wary of propane, it's dangerous stuff. A lot of cars in Australia are converted to LPG, a propane/ butane mix, and every now and then a dodgy backyard conversion causes a tragedy. It's pretty uncommon these days, licensing and standards are well monitored, but it still happens.

   Propane is heavier than air, and collects in low-lying areas if it leaks.

   If you're already using propane for heating, you'll hardly notice the extra usage with a good on-demand HWS unless you spend hours in the shower.  
   



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#2)
by healerenergy (healerenergy@yahoo.com) on Sun May 2nd, 2004 at 06:39:57 PM MST
(User Info) ourgreatawakening.com

Burks
try looking into a parabolic trough and an insulated underground storage tank.  you can put in temps up to 1000 degrees and take it out at any temp you want to.
Energy comes from many Sources the trick is knowing how to tap into it.


Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#16)
by rwilkers on Tue May 11th, 2004 at 10:40:26 PM MST
(User Info)

When you arrive at a design please forward it..

[ Parent ]


Re: Water heating system (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by healerenergy (healerenergy@yahoo.com) on Mon Dec 6th, 2004 at 09:08:38 PM MST
(User Info) ourgreatawakening.com

I will be happy to share what I have come up with.
Energy comes from many Sources the trick is knowing how to tap into it.
[ Parent ]


Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#3)
by cvo on Mon May 3rd, 2004 at 04:51:42 AM MST
(User Info)

I use a Bosch on-demand propane heater for my cabin & bunkhouse rentals and I think they are great. I have 2 40lb tanks now until I get a bigger tank. $20 to fill both and in one month I can get almost 300 showers off of one tank. You can turn the pilot of if your not going to use it, save gas. I bought mine from Home Depot.
Good Luck



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#4)
by picmacmillan (rmacmill@sympatico.ca) on Mon May 3rd, 2004 at 12:34:43 PM MST
(User Info) http:// www.frecklefarmloghomes.com

hi burkes falls man....first off i'd like to say i have enjoyed your posts and pictures of your satellite endeavors ..you're questions that got answered helped me also......now on to your hot water dilemma.....i don't know if this will help but when we went moose hunting we strapped a new gas tank on the back of our wood stove(we live in windsor and a tank was donated by generous motors)and we had tons of hot water, also, the steam kept the air so it isn't so dry in the building due to the wood stove..if i could recommend using maybe stainless steel and make a square tank and attach it to the wood stove, or under it,, the stainless would insure the water would not become rusty coloured over time........i have also seen coiled 3/4" copper pipe wound around the woodstove pipe, if you carried that one step further and wound the pipe around the wood stove pipe and all the way up, you would have a lot of volume there with little expense and work involved........if you attached a pump to it i'm sure it would pump adequate water for showers and dishes etc....if you chose to, you could put the tank out of sight some how ...just a thought or two...have a good one....pickster
http://www.frecklefarmloghomes.com


Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#10)
by BurksFallsMan on Tue May 4th, 2004 at 05:45:22 PM MST
(User Info)

I agree  with you on the methodm the problem is that I do not have a stove yet. I think I will go with the Bosch on-demand or investigate the camping Coleman for $200.00
Thanks, Wilson

[ Parent ]


Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#5)
by Frank Lussier on Mon May 3rd, 2004 at 01:20:00 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.junkyardsolar.com

Hi

Did you ever think of using solar panels for your hot water, I know solar panels are expensive but you can make your own for cheap, I just became a distributor for a company who manufactures solar panels. You can buy the absorber (alumminium/copper) 4x7 or 4x8 to make your solar panel, you just have to make a insulated box and add glass on top.

I am bulding 4 solar panels to start with, I will use them for my hot water (family of 4) and if I can I would like to make 12 in total for my hot water and for radiant heat. Each solar panel will cost me $300 to make compared to $800 in the store. I am just missing a tank for storage.

The solar fins retail for $280cnd 4x7 with 3/4" header,  not too bad but you can buy the fins and make you own header.

I will keep you posted on the progress of my project.

P.S. I am in process of making a web site for the fins it will be cheaper than the manufacturer's retail price.

Regards
Frank



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#6)
by BurksFallsMan on Mon May 3rd, 2004 at 07:08:54 PM MST
(User Info)

Frank: I like your suggestion. At least in spring and early fall should be okay. +summer. Where can I get some details for the fabrication?
Thanks, Wilson

[ Parent ]


Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#7)
by Frank Lussier on Tue May 4th, 2004 at 12:46:54 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.junkyardsolar.com

This is the frame I made for my warm air solar panel: I used 2x6 channels for steel stud, they cost around $3 for 12' at Home depot or any lumberyard. For the insulation I used ROXUL, the ignition point is 1200°F and for the glass I used double glazed temperproof windows (patio door), for the backing I used an aluminium sheet.

It is very easy to make, the water coming out of the solar pannel can reach very high temperature, my friend has to cover his solar pannel in the summer. For the absorber you can make it yourself with copper pipe or you can buy it from me, the absorber is high effeciency it is worth it ...just drop in your box. If you need more info on the absorber go to my website www.junkyardsolar.com  the website is not finished as of yet, I just started on it. When the box is finished you need to seal the box with high heat caulking.  

Hope this helps, if you need further info, don't hesitate to contact me at frank@fludan.com
Thanks
Frank

[ Parent ]



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#8)
by bkrahmer on Tue May 4th, 2004 at 01:35:23 PM MST
(User Info)

I'm planning on building about six solar collectors, probably next year.  You mentioned that you would seal up the boxes with caulk.  I thought about that, and it seems to me that if you seal up the boxes too well, that high pressure could build up and blow out the glass.  Is that not true?

I suppose the entire box wouldn't be sealed that well, so it probably wouldn't happen, but a second opinion would be nice.

[ Parent ]



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#9)
by Frank Lussier on Tue May 4th, 2004 at 02:43:59 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.junkyardsolar.com

Your are right. One thing I forgot to mention is you have to drill a hole at the bottom of the box for the condensation and this will prevent pressure build up.

Good luck with your project keep us posted.

Thanks
Frank


[ Parent ]



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#11)
by meteorscatter on Tue May 4th, 2004 at 07:06:19 PM MST
(User Info)

Just another idea;

A simple/cheap and effective way that I use, is, 150' of 3/4" black pvc water pipe layed out flat in a round coil, placed on the sunny side of your roof or on the ground where you get the most exposure to the sun. It will supply you with all the hot showers you want.
This of course will not work in the winter in the Burksfall's area.
Just for a test try leaving your garden hose laying on the ground, I guarantee it will be hot enough to burn you on a good sunny day.

Richard/B



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#17)
by nicolae on Thu May 13th, 2004 at 11:35:38 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi,
I do the same.
I have put the hose in plastic bottles to prevent cooling and it works even in november.
I drilled a 1" hole in the bottom of the bottle where the goulot of the next bottle comes in,with the hose in the middle.This colector is not 100% insulated,but does the job...
Nicolai

[ Parent ]


Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#12)
by Xavy on Thu May 6th, 2004 at 05:43:56 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi,

I'm new here and maybe this will help.  

Few years back I used a heat exchanger made of copper pipe mounted on an old galvanized highway billboard sign.  I had the system charged with antifreeze and covered the panel with a brand name Solarex fiberglass cover.  The panel was very crude just six; sixty feet reels of ½ inch copper pipe soldiered together on the panel and two reels in the bottom of an insulated non-pressurized plastic 400-gallon tank.  I used a circulating pump hooked up to a lamp timer to turn it on and off.  

At the top of the tank I ran four 60 feet reels of ½ inch pipe to collect the heat from my service water leading to the hot water heater.

I'm doing test on cooking oil as a replacement for antifreeze now to see if it hold up to freezing and thawing.  If it does then in a closed loop used cooking oil would do the trick for a lot less cost.

Xavy




Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#13)
by Xavy on Fri May 7th, 2004 at 08:36:05 AM MST
(User Info)

Strange phenomenon.

Conducting the controlled testing cooking corn oil as a replacement of antifreeze I followed these control measures.

Filled 16-ounce plastic bottle with "new" oil to the exact rim line below the cap and allowed air bubbles to rise and escape before capping

Did the above with tap water.

Placed both bottles in freezer.

Checked two hours later with following results.  
Water: freezing and bottle expanding.
Oil: contracting in bottle, with ½ inch of air above oil; oil becoming consistency of chocolate syrup.

Checked 12 hours later with following results.
Water: container split open, water frozen solid.
Oil: Container further contracted (bottle somewhat flattened) with nearly ¾ inch air space at top of bottle.  Oil slightly cloudy and mushy with consistency of molasses.

Removed oil from freezer and without disturbing left sitting in shaded area to come to room temperature.
Results:  The bottle had regained roundness and oil returned to the original fill line.  

 Conclusion:  New corn oil could be used as a replacement for antifreeze in a closed loop system if an in-line reservoir or pressure tank were added to compensate contraction.

NEXT STEP:  Conduct above test on used cooking oil being discarded from a local restaurant after screening out impurities with wire mesh and coffee filters.

Xavy




Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#14)
by dave123 on Fri May 7th, 2004 at 10:28:36 AM MST
(User Info)

How would you pump the molasses when it is cold at the non-sunny end?  I would also think that, especially with used oil, it would become rancid after a while and maybe even grow some funky stuff in your pipes.

I think you would only need about 10 qts for the system you described, that shouldn't cost too much.  Use propylene glycol antifreeze, not ethelyne based.  ethelyne based is toxic, propylen based is not;  just in case you have a leak between the antifreeze system and the water supply.

[ Parent ]



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#15)
by Xavy on Fri May 7th, 2004 at 01:01:32 PM MST
(User Info)

The liquid would only be pumped when it was above 130F so thick oil wouldn't be a problem.

I live in a non-freeze climate.  I'm testing it to be applied in freezing climates.  I will construct a small-scale model and cause it to function as in a winter environment.  I have a friend with a walk-in freezer.  I think even used oil in a closed container heated and cooled will not turn rancid.  The test will tell, nothing but time before the results are known and I'll be happy to keep you posted.

The theory of the system would be for a very large-scale heat exchanger for home heating along with hot water preheating.  The concept would allow you to construct very inexpensive solar collector panels.  For example you could buy a mile of ½ inch copper pipe before you could buy a couple commercial panels.  Copper is a no loss investment, like investing in other precious metals, your initial investment will amortize itself as the price goes up.  On the other hand a commercial panel depreciates like a new car the day you buy it.

If you would construct a single or multiple panels by insulating a back plate and then mounting rewound reels on it the efficiency would not match a commercial panel but the BTU production per dollar invested would be greatly improved and make up for the difference.  I can buy 66 feet reels for under $40.00 US.  By winding the reels in tight concentric circles e.g. 8-inch diameter, and then tightly spiraling out to a width of 2 feet diameter you can place 120 feet of ½ inch copper tube in a space of 2 X 4 feet.  It's almost all collector surfaces and reduces glass or fiberglass panel covering cost.  

I use six reels to heat 90 gallons a day.  Say you had sixty reels and a 1000-gallon storage tank to drop that heat in.   You could run a loop from the drain of a hot water heater to the top of the HW tank with a very small pump to constantly circulate the water.  Likewise another loop could be connected to the return air intake of a house furnace with a radiator to pull the heat into the house.  Or a heat pump could have a loop ran into the large tank.

Xavy


[ Parent ]



Re: Water heating system (none / 0) (#18)
by dozer on Fri May 28th, 2004 at 07:31:00 PM MST
(User Info)


Wilson, I too have enjoyed your diary.  thanks.

We've used the rolls of black water tubing.  Note, that's not PVC, it's polyethylene.  We use 1".

It ain't an optimum system, but it works whenever the air-temp is above 50 or so.  Presumably, if you took a couple of flat coils of it 4' in diameter and made the usual 2x4/plywood/patio-door box, it'd give you a hot shower down to 30 degree outdoor temps.  Well, at least a -warm- shower :grin:

Oil:  oil is not a very good carrier of heat.  Usable, but much much poorer than water/PG.  You'd have to pump quite a few more gph to transfer the same BTU's.  And yes, it will go rancid.  It also oxidizes over time, and the products are VERY difficult to clean out...



Water heating system | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board
· Old Otherpower Board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  106 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· Also by BurksFallsMan

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2003 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!