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Patents: Good for nothing?


By gibsonfvse, Section Reviews
Posted on Thu May 20, 2004 at 01:19:45 PM MST
Are patents good for the homebrew power community? What about for small-time inventors and businesses? Do they help or hurt innovation?

This isn't really a rant, per se, but my attempt to gauge member opinions on patents. It's intended to be thought-provoking and will probably come off as a bit controversial, but hopefully it won't come across as entirely inflammatory or ignorant. I'll also try not to generalize too much. In other words, if I misquote, take anything out of context, or otherwise say anything silly, just stick-it-to-me. Well, here goes:

I've been browsing the board for a short time (and have been a registered poster for a much shorter time), but I've already noticed that the homebrew power community is good at coming up with new and great out-of-the-box ideas. Perhaps lack of money and other resources are a reason for this; most people don't have computer-controlled machining tools or piles of carbon fiber in their garages for example. Thus, the natural tendency is to start with what one already has, whether it be a bike tach or a brake drum, and use it for a new purpose. In a slightly different vein, folks wishing to challenge the establishment muse on and sometimes build and test new designs. There's a high level of information-sharing that goes on in this board, and I find this to be encouraging and inspiring.

Some days ago, I found a post by a member requesting help designing a wind turbine (I just looked for the post again but wasn't able to find it). When the person showed a computer drawing with the words "Patent Pending" scrawled into it, a commenter expressed distaste in the closed nature of the project. Granted, this was a rather specific case where the member was asking for community help on something he/she or an associated group intended to patent. This, however, leads me to ask: Does a patent naturally close off a project, limiting the contributions of or value to other community members? I have a couple of thoughts, hopefully not-too-scattered, and note that IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer).

1. A patent means disclosure. At least where the USPTO is concerned, people who patent anything essentially disclose details about an invention. Anyone who wants to learn at least a little bit about the thing can go to the source itself and read up on it. Several people have mentioned starting at the USPTO website to gather ideas. I think this is part of the purpose of the patent system, and inventors should use it for this.

2. Ideas should not be patentable. Implementations of ideas should be. The ideal patent should be very specific to a particular creation. Example: "I claim a method of harnessing energy stored in the wind using -blah- number of blades with -blah- chord, -blah- twist, and -blah- method of safety consisting of..." The details should be laid right out on the table. This would not only allow an interested party to possibly build the proposed invention (given sufficient resources), but also allow people to see clear paths to new and better ideas that don't violate the patent. A patent that is not specific enough does not help the community in this way. Of course, "specific" is often in the eye of the reader.

3. Darn near any system can be abused. The much-ballyhoed Amazon.com one-click patent (US #5,960,411), which Richard Stallman claims trumps all over much of e-commerce (the patent with some short commentary from him can be found here), is a possible example of this. Also in the computer industry, small-time companies are springing up to file suit against big companies, claiming infringement of patented technology. The patenting of genes is highly controversial (some pros and cons here). Humans are humans, and not all are altruistic; any system is subject to abuse. There are many bad apples out there, but there are also honest and hardworking individuals who just want credit for their work.

4. A patent means credit. With the speed at which information travels these days, its very easy for someone to be misquoted, taken out of context, or outright robbed upon sharing a great idea. The patent process is -supposedly- intended to help this by giving clear credit where credit is due.

5. A patent doesn't mean automatic riches. Most people like the idea of having more money, but a patent is not an automatic ticket to riches, nor does it have to be at all. Most of you can think of a case where a company has sued an individual or other group for millions claiming infringement. Also, advertisements for the patent process clearly suggest the idea of marketing one's invention after it is patented. Some might even say the patent process is pointless if one isn't going to market the invention. For some, however, just having credit is enough, and sometimes the time and effort required to sell an invention may just not be worth the trouble.

I don't know nearly enough to claim that the patent system is broken; I'm sure there are many smart and hardworking individuals in the USPTO, and all systems have their flaws. In summarizing the numbers up above, patents could possibly help those in the homebrew power community who come up with great ideas and simply want their credit. Considering recent abuses of the system, however (especially in the software industry), the very idea of patents often leaves a sour taste in many mouths. I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts, as I'm still formulating my own.

Some links:
- A very short call for reform: Patent legislation considered helpful
- The USPTO FAQ
- Patent process taking years: U.S. Patent Office Swamped By Backlog
Patents: Good for nothing? | 22 comments (22 topical)

Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#1)
by gibsonfvse on Thu May 20, 2004 at 01:36:17 PM MST

One more link I found: Patently Absurd



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#2)
by boB on Thu May 20, 2004 at 02:12:25 PM MST

I've been involved with a few patents and I think the system has gone
nuts.

Some companies I believe just want to show that they have a lot of patents
so they may look like they're worth more when they go to sell the company.

I don't think the patent office examiners research prior art very well.
I've seen all sorts of patents that have prior art against them.  In the
end, it's all up to a judge to decide if the patent is good or not.

A patent is basically a license to sue someone as I see it.

I believe the system is way overloaded and there are not enough patent examiners
at USPTO and they may only look at past patents and not technical papers etc.

Also, after a patent has been granted, the USPTO is exempt from any lawsuits
or legal duties after that.  They just get a lot of money for the
patent and don't have to worry about it any more.  Except to collect money
from the patent holder periodically for the next 20 years.

I wouldn't say patents in general are good for the industry necessarily.  Might be good for some companies though.   It's certainly good for lawyers though.

The money that goes to the lawyers fighting out the rights of who owns what patent
then goes to the lawyers and not into the company for designing new and better power equipment.

boB



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#3)
by gibsonfvse on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:33:33 PM MST

Indeed; I'd agree that the patent system is way overloaded, and truly needs a larger and more up-to-date staff (what with all of the new technologies being proposed and coming to fruition these days).  Perhaps it's a marketing problem; most people coming out of school with advanced degrees don't think of entering the field of patent litigation and whatnot.... they want to go off and create.  Within this lies part of the problem: the people with the knowledge to create are also needed to defend.

[ Parent ]


Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#4)
by bob golding on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:31:33 PM MST

from the other side of the pond, i wanted to  get some funding from the uk goverment to develop a VAWT, but quickly gave up when i discovered that they want you  have a patentable idea. if i went down that road i would spend all the grant on the patent and not on the development,which was where i came in. so going to carry on with no money and do it anyway. Isnt politics wonderfull.

bob golding



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#5)
by iFred on Thu May 20, 2004 at 05:05:53 PM MST

The patent system is out to lunch, never to return again!

That said, I have dealt with them on several occasions. I have a couple of things on this subject to express. Which not everyone will agree with...

  1.     Lawyers and patents are brutally expensive... nuff said
  2.     Patents are not iron clad. People and corps that have more money can tie it up in court and lawyers for eons, meanwhile production has already begun, they are already making money in another country of the patent, your toast.
  3.     A patent does not mean that the device actually works!
For the rest of us law abiding citizens...any device that is patented only means that you cannot mass manufacture the device (even if it's better), and sell it.

You can however build for your own amusement as many of the devices as you want provided you don't sell it. And you have the decency to give credit to the person who created the device or idea.

If it is put into the public domain it becomes the public domain, however the stipulation is that the original creator gets the credit for the device no matter what, and if it is located on a web site all material is copywritted material anyway and is already more or less protected under those laws. (which can be even more stringent and protected then a patent!!) -and it's free ;-)

The sharing of ideas, concepts and devices on a web site such as this grants you an immediate copywrite and protection because it now becomes public knowledge with lots and lots of witnesses, ip address etc....etc.... You are however freely sharing the idea so as to make it better, work out the bugs etc...

This naturally leads to a more healthy environment where you are encouraged to devote more time and thought into concepts that perhaps you might have overlooked and gives you better insight into the nature of any given device and make it better.

If you negate the concept of financial gain momentarily, then the gain is that you are still protected under copywrite laws, internet laws etc... and still maintain the rights and privileges to the device and still get the credit if it is an original concept. Which can now be verified rapidly by many through the internet.

If you are infringing on an idea, I almost bet that someone knows about it and will bring it forth rapidly.

Also, most ideas expressed on a web site such as this is purely mechanical/electrical in nature. Almost all the laws that govern physics and mechanics is already known, as such there really is not much here to invent but rather to refine mechanically, do it better, stronger, faster, slightly different, higher outputs, different alignments etc..

If I where to patent every single mechanical device that I think of, I may as wise be a patent lawyer, because I would have no time to do much else.

In the genetics or genes world, this is something new, and not just a matter of refinement.  This opens a door to another realm of patent law which I cannot even imagine what's going to pop out...

Besides, companys now beleive they own everyones thoughts while your at work, so now they just tap that and patent it without even consent. They beleive that your payment is your wage, which it is in a way. the day of an indevidual patenting an idea is gone as far as i am concearned. The corporations, lawyers and money rules.
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#8)
by gibsonfvse on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:59:56 PM MST

This is good thinking.  I actually don't know much about what rights and restrictions apply to information in the public domain.  Definitely worth reading up on; I'll do the obligatory Google-ing, but do you have any places you suggest I check out first?  Also, some people have been advocating a GPL-like method of sharing information, and there are a few sites like this (none that I can recall off the top of my head, though).  I don't know what current "improvements" to the public domain idea are out there.

[ Parent ]


Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#12)
by iFred on Fri May 21, 2004 at 04:38:41 AM MST


Some of the "copyleft" laws are interesting. Just do basic google for internetlaw and copywrite law on images, web pages, watermarked images etc...

under the terms of GNU free documentation license
http://www.fsf.org/copyleft/fdl.html
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#6)
by RobD on Thu May 20, 2004 at 06:28:50 PM MST

Having several patents I can say absolutely do not ever waste your time, energy or money!
RobD



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#7)
by gibsonfvse on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:56:29 PM MST

I'm curious... why do you say this?

[ Parent ]


Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#19)
by RobD on Sat May 22, 2004 at 05:13:13 AM MST

First cost. Secondly large companies will steal your patent and have their 'bean counter' figure out how much it will cost in litigation if you sue and most people don't sue because they do not have the funds to fight long battles.
Also even though you can get a patent and have a clause that includes all obvious variations of your design a clever company can come in a make a small change on it a 'push' it through the patent office with their high power attys. You can fight it but again your up against a wall of money that you can't compete with. Believe me I've been there.

[ Parent ]


Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#9)
by arc on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:01:42 PM MST

IMO, litigation ain't worth the lawyer it's wiped on!

I think most here will agree that life is worth far too much to spend one's hard earned savings on anything but life's necessities ... and ... hopefully there's enough left over to afford the tools, the shop and the overhead needed to maintain an environment which harbors creativity.

I love to tinker in my humble shop, it flows in my veins and restores my heart; and I sure don't want to stiffle all this by spending my time (and hard earned bucks) talking to lawyers and/or frigid government regulatories.

In the old days (guess I'm showning my age) a handshake or for that matter a patent meant something. Now it's just another government sponsered scam, a subsidised rip-off and has nothing to do with honor and respect (what I really think the originators of the patent concept had in mind).

... I could go on (rant rant rant, bla bla bla) but I'd really be getting off-topic and the only point I want to make here is that we should all enjoy life, enjoy creating and enjoy the fruits of our labors (it really does take a lot of labor to create many of the projects presented on this great board), Ya only live once, don't spend half of it sweatin' about patents.

arc



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#10)
by gibsonfvse on Thu May 20, 2004 at 10:18:58 PM MST

From the Forbes.com article:

The USPTO realized that the fees from granting and maintaining patents created that rarest of American institutions--a government profit center. In fact, the USPTO started openly advocating that its performance be measured by the amount that it contributed to the public coffers.

Yeah, agreed.  Costs and time make it a not-fun process, to say the least.  I'll see if I can find more information on public-domain stuff.

[ Parent ]



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#15)
by tecker on Fri May 21, 2004 at 03:17:27 PM MST

 

    It seems that if you want to make money with an " invention " you toolup and sell a working unit as a kit the patent will just sloooow down the green agenda . It would have to be one hell of a mouse trap and you would have to have patent attorneys
to the tune of  $$$" Alice's resturant"



To Patent or Not To Patent.... (none / 0) (#16)
by cryptojoe on Fri May 21, 2004 at 10:12:17 PM MST

That is the question.

In times past, many have patented then sold out. Some of these, Hydrogen Technologies in particular, were locked up in a cabal involving Governments, Automakers, and the Oil Companies.

Here is the quandary: If you do patent, you risk being robbed by those with deeper pockets in court. If you do not patent, you risk being robbed by anyone who copies your work, patents it, then claims you owe them for producing their product without paying royalties.

So really to patent or not to patent depends upon whether you hope to beat all odds using the system or bypassing it.

If your invention is innovative, as in something no one has tried, it may be worth the risk. If your idea is a simple improvement upon an existing system, you quietly work on it, go to the USPTO on-line, file a provisional, and produce enough to see if it would be profitable to continue the patent process. If it's a winner, patent it. If at this point you fear being robbed, sell out.

One thing is certain, like all artists, inventors usually die broke and in obscurity; the world of inventions is not for the faint of heart.



Re: To Patent or Not To Patent.... (none / 0) (#17)
by Michael on Fri May 21, 2004 at 11:24:24 PM MST

if you publish your work and share it, like this board, it becomes general knowledge an therefore un-patentable, so no one can patent your idea.
i like this option.

Michael

[ Parent ]



Re: To Patent or Not To Patent.... (none / 0) (#18)
by E man on Sat May 22, 2004 at 03:08:38 AM MST

"if you publish your work and share it, like this board, it becomes general knowledge an therefore un-patentable, so no one can patent your idea."

-Not true my friend.  

You still have one year from the time of public disclosure to file for a patent.
(The hour is late...it's my thinking hour).  I'm looking at my copy of "The Inventor's Desktop Companion: A Guide to Successfully Marketing and Protecting Your Ideas" by a guy named Richard C. Levy; a good book I'd have to say.

My Dad was a patent fiend; never got one, but he loved (and loathed) the patent process.  He worked as an architect during the Carter Administration and was fascinated with solar projects and the like.  I learned a few tricks from him.

Number one: Keep a record book or journal of your ideas and periodically ask acquaintances, not direct family, to sign as a witness that have you described the invention to them on such and such date.  

Number two:  If you think you've got a good idea (way before you disclose anything publicly) , the first step is to write a detailed description and send it to the Document Disclosure Project at the USPTO. You'll send the description, along with a self addressed stamped envelope and $10 bucks.  They will send you a xerox copy of your description and retain this information on record for two years.  If patent issues arise you now have proof of your ideas but you may also have to show that you have been diligent in pursuing the patent (not just sitting on your butt for two years).

Also, a Provisional Patent (fairly cheap) is NOT a real patent, you cannot claim "patent pending" to keep others from making and marketing your device.  In this case, you will have one year from filing the Provisional patent to file a real, honest to God, patent.

One piece of advice: If you ever decide to go full-bore on this patent thing...don't ever spend money on those screwball, fly-by-night groups advertising on late night television for patent/marketing info kits.  They will never patent your device, but they will rob you blind.

Finally, my own personal view: I am devoted to alternative energy solutions, and I am truly excited about its future, along with conservation measures (simple things like compact fluorescent lighting and energy efficient appliances).  Obtaining a patent may or may not be the right choice for an individual, but keep records of your ideas in case you decide later to patent.  Also, the more work you do on writing your patent (background/history/engineering info,etc.) the less the final cost will be; attorneys are paid by the hour...ummph; reminds me of the [other] oldest profession.        

Have a Good'un.

-E man

       

[ Parent ]



Re: To Patent or Not To Patent.... (none / 0) (#21)
by Michael on Sat May 22, 2004 at 08:13:46 AM MST

E man,

Yes, You have one year to patent it after you publish it if you wish to do so,
but no one else can patent it because they are not the inventor, you are.

so no one else can take your idea and patent it....

i think that makes sense.. right?

[ Parent ]



Re: To Patent or Not To Patent.... (none / 0) (#23)
by E man on Sat May 22, 2004 at 02:17:45 PM MST

That sounds about right, Michael (your idea, your patent).  

I also like the idea, as others have mentioned, of just making kits and selling the darned thing.  In fact, if you go this route, you may not even want to patent your gizmo...that may actually reveal too many features of your device to your competitors.   You can always keep a few subtle details of the device to yourself as trade secrets; nothing wrong with that.  

Building a better mousetrap (and patenting it) does NOT mean the World will come knocking on your door, though.  From what I gained from my Dad's course through these troubled waters, it's a hard slog.  In terms of value, you'll have much more leverage if you have product in hand, patented, and more importantly, a small cottage industry making the Widgit.  Start small and enjoy what you're doing.

-E man

   

[ Parent ]



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#20)
by RobD on Sat May 22, 2004 at 05:36:03 AM MST

Well said 'e' man.
 A couple of things, again remember guys you can't patent an idea, it must be a process or a product. Two it doesn't have to work. (Bedini for example)
Most of my designs now fall into what is called 'intellectual property' and it encompasses things like microcontroller programs and the like. I protect the ideas two ways. First I don't disclose the code unless it is for a magazine article in which case I usually have to or I freely disclose the code for a design but get it out in the market place before anyone can pick it up. So essentially I make my money and flood the market with the code and make my profit on the design it is used in.
Microprocessor chips can be locked so that most people can't get the code. I know many engineers that just don't bother hiding things or getting patents, they may get trade marks and copy rights. I usually put a copy right on my circuit boards which those of you who have any will notice by a circle with a 'c' inside it. I date the boards also. Most companies will come to me if they want the circuit because it isn't worth it for them to steal it when the cost to buy it is cheap. So essentially I make money on products and not patents.
The other thing you can do is a patent search which is free, this will give you an idea of what has been patented and how different your design is, again notice I didn't say 'idea'.
RobD



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#22)
by Michael on Sat May 22, 2004 at 08:40:08 AM MST

yes i agree, make your money on your products and not on a patent.
a company would probably change it slightly and try get around your patent anyway.
What if you have an idea of a process or product, can you patent that?
...anyway you might as well make it free so everyone can benefit from it.

[ Parent ]


Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#24)
by devoncloud on Wed May 26, 2004 at 09:19:55 PM MST

OK, very intriguing, I would like to chime in.  First off, There is one very unique thing about this site that I believe is the heart behind this whole rant in the first place,  which is the genuine yearning to learn and willingness to share the knowledge that each of the people that subscribe to this website has stored in their heads.  This sharing is a very rare occurance these days, and I for one would like to thank each and every one of you on this site for your willingness to help out those who wish to learn about DIY energy but may not have the knowledge that others have.  I personally find the sharing of knowledge and ideas on this site one of the most honorable and noble uses the internet has brought to our lives.

This I think is the heart of this post.  By this I mean that the knowledge that is posted on this site daily was so knowledgable and provided so many ideas that it sparked a thought in someone's head.  That thought was (in my opinion anyway), "There is so many great ideas and so much creativity in these posts, that these people should think of Patents!!!".

This is a regular thought for most folks these days.  I had the same thought when I first saw this site as well.  I could not believe I had found a group of people that were so willing to share their knowledge and that people must be crazy to put ideas that could make them a living up on this site for the whole world to see for free.  Looking back on this thought however, I think that it is very sad I ever had that thought.

We have reached a point in human existence where there is little out there we share anymore.  It feels so good to do so, yet it has become more and more taboo as time goes on.  Have we all gotten so selfish that we consider sharing to be stupid?

I for one think that the idea that patents stand for to be a horrible thing, especially with things that can help folks out such as DIY energy.  I guess the key phrase here is "DO IT YOURSELF"... It is hard to DIY if there is a patent out there to stop you.

Thanks again to all of you for what you give the world.  It may seem to be a  small thing to you, but it for one makes me think that their is still a litle good left in us yet.
Devon  



Re: Patents: Good for nothing? (none / 0) (#25)
by gibsonfvse on Fri May 28, 2004 at 02:28:49 AM MST

devoncloud,
   Yes, I  had the exact same thoughts you've just written here concerning everyone's desire to share information with one another.  That, combined with the post I saw with the "Patent Pending" image, prompted me to write this.  I don't consider myself a good writer of essays, so I think my writing sent a mixed message of sorts.  I tried to be impartial while also attempting to show how patents could be of any use to someone.  Probably a nonsensical thing to do!

I'll be totally honest and agree with you: this community is one of the most amazing I've stumbled upon in a very long time, and I've been in this internet thing for about 10 years now.  I've only been here for about two weeks, and I've already been inspired on numerous occasions.  For instance, my post on a low-cost datalogger generated a good number of excellent thoughts.  I hope something like this lasts a very long time.  

[ Parent ]



Patents: Good for nothing? | 22 comments (22 topical)
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