Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
questions about laminates


By devoncloud, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sat May 29, 2004 at 01:07:29 PM MST
A little confused....

OK, so I am just about finished with my first ever alternator which will be a two-magnet rotor design.  I have been doing a bunch of research in the meantime thinking about ways I could improve on the next one, and a few emails with Ed have got me thinking.  I was sure that the double-magnet rotor system would produce more power(twice as many magnets =more power), however talking to him he believes that if you build a single magnet rotor with a steel slotted stator, you can produce a more powerful alternator.  What are your thoughts on this?

Since I have not done any work with steel laminates, I am a little unsure about how to go about winding them.  Is each ring a seperate piece of metal from the next ring of laminate?  Is it necessary to insulate each ringfrom the other? How thick do the laminates need to be?  I am guessing that the laminate area needs to cover all the area the magnets do, that makes sense in order to catch as much flux as possible.

Next thing is air gap.  I am assuming that the air gap is the reason behind the thought that the single magnet rotor with a slotted steel rotor is the way to go.  The slots make everything much closer together making the system more efficient.  My question is since the coils is what is conducting your electricity (or at least harnessing it)I am not sure how the slots help.  the coils would be on top of the laminates without the slots, being closer to the magnets.  It seems to me that the slots would mean the coils are actually further away from the magnets.  the only thing I can venture to guess behind the reasoning here is that the laminates serve as a way to increase the efficiency of how much flux the coils are able to harness.  Can anyone out there explain this to me in a little more detail?  

If anyone out there knows of a good book that explains efficient stator design (that is not three hundred dollars or something) please let me know.

A little input from everyone on whether they agree or disagree with on whether or not they think this design is more efficient than the double-magnet rotor system would be appreciated as well.
Devon

questions about laminates | 4 comments (4 topical)

Re: questions about laminates (none / 0) (#1)
by TomW on Sat May 29, 2004 at 01:37:21 PM MST

devoncloud;

Personally, I would pretty much just believe whatever Ed over at windstuffnow.com says. He is a man with lots of experience in alternator building.

Unlike some [unnamed] users suggestions you may see on this forum Ed is very well informed and seldom far from the mark.

Just my personal opinion.

Cheers.

TomW

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it




Re: questions about laminates (none / 0) (#2)
by Norm on Sat May 29, 2004 at 05:45:01 PM MST

   Regarding slots in laminates...take a look at an ac induction motor... the coils are down at the bottom of the slots ...the coils could be 1/4 to 1/2 inch away what seems to matter here is the fact that the laminates are only about .010" from the armature...same with the slots in an armature or a coil on a lawnmower engine.
            Just my opinion from observations that I've made....course I could be all completely wrong and it really doesn't explain anything.
               Norm.
( :>) Norm


Re: questions about laminates (none / 0) (#3)
by DanB on Sat May 29, 2004 at 05:48:00 PM MST

I basicly agree with Tom... but I'll offer my current thoughts which may change tomorrow...

"I was sure that the double-magnet rotor system would produce more power(twice as many magnets =more power), however talking to him he believes that if you build a single magnet rotor with a steel slotted stator, you can produce a more powerful alternator.  What are your thoughts on this?"

With slotted laminates you can have a much thinner airgap, so... for any given diameter and a given amount of magnets, I think you could have a lot more power.  The dual rotor  "system" requires a lot bigger airgap, and a lot more magnet.

" Is each ring a seperate piece of metal from the next ring of laminate?  Is it necessary to insulate each ringfrom the other?"

It could be concentric rings, or... a big spiral, or lots of short segments.  Each layer should be somewhat insulated from it's neighboring layer - but the voltage in eddy currents in very low, so the insulation doesn't need to be excellent.  

"How thick do the laminates need to be?"

The thinner the better, but at some point it probably becomes a point of diminishing returns.  I've got some old westinghouse generators that have laminates almost 1/8" thick in them...

"I am guessing that the laminate area needs to cover all the area the magnets do, that makes sense in order to catch as much flux as possible."

I would guess the same.  I'd maybe consider slightly narrower than the magnets would be  OK or good, but probably not wider.

"Next thing is air gap.  I am assuming that the air gap is the reason behind the thought that the single magnet rotor with a slotted steel rotor is the way to go"

It's the way to go if you want the most bang for your buck in magnets... and it will allow for more power to be generated in a smaller space I think.
It may also have a different, possibly advantagous power curve - I'm not quite clear or sure how using laminates changes things there.  It does, in my opinion, have the drawback of cogging, some iron losses, and - in an axial flux machine (which is what were mostly doing) the bearing will be under a constant load (there will always be a force attracting the magnet rotor to the stator).  The advantage of a dual rotor alternator  - although larger and perhaps more expensive in magnets and wire, is that there will be no loading on the bearing, no eddy current losses, and no drag due to hystoresis  - so it will turn more freely and perhaps be slightly more efficient in low winds.  Depending on your tools and resources, one may be easier to  build than the other.  To build a single rotor machine with slotted laminates, you'll have to buy good steel for the laminates and figure a good way to put slots in them.  Like everything in this fun hobby - every choice has it's pros and cons.



Re: questions about laminates (none / 0) (#4)
by windstuffnow on Sat May 29, 2004 at 06:32:25 PM MST

  I'd have to agree with dan, alot depends on the skill level of the builder and the tools available.  Or the ability to have someone that does have the equipment to do the work.  Both designs have good and bad points.
  I believe alot depends on the individual and its much easier to build Hugh's design with parts you have laying around.

Most important though, having fun doing it however you decide to do it.

Windstuff Ed
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



questions about laminates | 4 comments (4 topical)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  73 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· magnet
· Also by devoncloud

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!