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Need help re-inventing the wheel


By Tekjeff, Section Remote Living
Posted on Fri May 07, 2004 at 02:39:11 PM MST
I need some advice on designing and implementing a solar based system to light my horse barns.

I need some advice on designing and implementing a solar based system to light my horse barns.  In a nutshell, we are installing large paddocks at the other end of our property that don't need AC power, but I want to light these barns and use some very low power security cameras to monitor what's going on.  The idea of paying the smiling electrician man to run AC to these barns sickens me, especially since every time I see him there is a minimum $400 charge.  A low voltage system is ideal too, because there is little danger of fire with them.  (Always something of concern to horse owners.)  Additionally, not being dependent on the power company to keep things up and running sounds like a great idea to me.  This will hopefully be the beginning of making myself as independent as possible from modern society.  

Normally, I would just buy a whole load of different items, experiment some and smell up my house with fried components.  However, the days of wine and roses financially speaking, are over.  I don't want to bark up any wrong trees or waste money and time.  I have read everything I can on otherpower.com and related sites, so I am familiar with terms.  Nevertheless I am very short on practical knowledge as it applies to solar systems.  

I am willing to trade advice in the area of computers.  I am a Systems Admin/Network Admin/Chief Cook/Bottle Washer/Computer Help Desk person by trade.  If you have a question about computers, networks, wireless computing or wireless 802.11 security devices, I am your man.  I have installed many networks, including some very odd configurations.  (The worst was a brick build with GLUED on sheetrock.  I figured out a way to do it without running the wires on the outside of the wall or punching holes in the brick.  Even got the jacks to mount flush without punching holes in the bricks.)  If you need help on installing low voltage data or phone wires, I am your man.  

I am a technological minimalist.  The simpler it works, the happier I am.  If I can do without a component, great.  Even if that means it's not terribly efficient, that's ok too.  As long as it meets the need.  Once installed, I want to mess with it as little as possible.  If installing an extra battery will help extend the life of all batteries due to deep cycle concerns, that's fine with me.  Reliability is a key issue.  If I can go straight 12 volts all the way across, that would be wonderful too.  

Here is what I want to do in detail.  I want to light the area around the horse barn so that one can see to work in it at dark.  It does not have to look like Las Vegas at night, but I don't want to trip over anything either.  I want customers to be able to access their horses 24/7.  (Horse owners keep some odd hours.)  That means the front has to be lit well enough to load/unload a horse trailer at two in the morning.  Furthermore the back of the stall has a shade paddock.  The stall and shade paddock need to be lighted constantly at night too.  

The barns have a separate tack and feed room off of the horses stall.  Customers need to be able to groom/feed their horse at night.  They need to be able to see in the tack room well enough to find things at night.  The tack room lights would be off most of the time, but as mentioned before the front, stall and shade paddock need constant lighting at night.

The security cameras operate using 802.11b.  These use almost no power and are of the on demand type.  They go into sleep mode most of the time and have a minimal phantom load.  The 802.11b transmitter is built into the camera.  These devices are designed exactly for what I am doing and are super efficient.  They run on 12 volts DC, so they should be painless to integrate into the system.  The cameras were designed to work with solar or other remote power systems other that standard AC.

Ok, some dimensions.  The entire horse barn is 25 X 25 including the small tack and feed room.  The shade paddock in the back is 25 X 12.  The front of the horse barn is fairly small area that owners will back their horse trailer into.  Area lighting here would be just the front door of the barn and the immediate area just in front of the door.  These areas total up to less than 100 feet.  All measurements are in standard U.S. feet, by the way.  

Mounting the solar cell should be no hassle.  There is plenty of south facing roof area.  In addition, I am located in Northern Arizona, so sunlight is in ample supply.  One area of concern is lightning.  That is something else in abundance here too and I am not sure how to protect the system from it.

Hopefully I have given you enough information to help me out.  My thoughts on this would simply be to put a solar cell on the roof of the barn, wire it directly to whatever batteries are required and wire the lights and camera to that.  Sounds a bit too simple to me and I am aware that my ignorance is showing.  I also know that some sort of battery charger will be needed.  Beyond that I have no idea.

The LED socket lights look like they would be a good choice.  They don't get hot, fit in a common receptacle and I could easily build a dispersion reflector to disperse the light over a larger area.

Any ideas on what I will need?  

Need help re-inventing the wheel | 7 comments (7 topical)

Re: Need help re-inventing the wheel (none / 0) (#1)
by Curtludwig on Fri May 07, 2004 at 04:57:50 PM MST

Led is nice but doesn't throw alot of light over a large area. I'd think cf would be better. 20 watt bulbs are supposed to be as bright as 100w incandecent. So figure on maybe 6 inside maybe. The challenge will be to light outside without incandescent spotlights which are super power hogs. You also don't note where you are and cf bulbs are notorious for not working well where its cold. Better assume you're going to need to blow some serious power for those outside lights or plan on some not so great illumination.
So if we go back to cf lets say you could get away with 15 20w bulbs. How much are they going to need to be on? Lets say a total of 4 hours a day for all 15 bulbs. So 300w for when all the bulbs are on. I'm working on a worst case estimate btw your mileage may vary. Thats 1200w/h.
So we're talking 25 amps or 100ah of capacity needed at least. We want to not seriously drain the batts, I can't remember off hand how little, so lets say we need 400ah of capacity. Thats at least 4 batteries.
So a sidebar here, we're looking at batts at maybe $75 apiece, thats $300. The bulbs are like $12 apiece, thats $180, $480 and we haven't even talked about solar yet.
I'll leave generation for somebody who knows more about it....



Re: Need help re-inventing the wheel (none / 0) (#2)
by John II on Fri May 07, 2004 at 10:03:49 PM MST

We have a 12 X 24 milk barn that has a 55w Pv pannel and 1 12v boat battery (cheap as you can get ! ) It powers a electric fencer, one LED bulb that cost over $100.00 and a rather large DC electric fan to keep the fellow that's hand milking the cow nice and cool : ) The bulb draws so little, we leave it on all night and the battery doesn't even know it's on.

I can't give advice so much as just tell what we feel like we have learned about lighting thus far at our home. A couple of years ago we invested almost $400 in LED lights at Real Goods ( an alternative energy store. ) We kind of bought one of everthing.. right up to that one LED light bulb that cost over $100.00 just to see how each would perform.

We have grown to like using LED lights as night lights. They will keep you from tripping over anything and they draw 1/10 or even less than a conventional bulb. They do put off a sharp white almost blue light that we find too harsh to use as a reading lamps.

Just reciently however I purchased a couple of LED lamps (while not enclosed in glass like the $100 Real Good's bulb, I think is brighter yet, and paid only around $ 15.00 each ! Now I see they are down to neary $10 each... So things are really changing fast in the LED lighting department. Here's the URL to something simular to what we just purchased...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2477717681&category=3 3717

But when you want real light... the you need fluorescent bulbs, whether they be conventional or the new compact ones. I'd recommend going with either that uses 12vdc ballast. I wouldn't go the inverter route for a couple of reasons... alot less effecient and if your inverter dies.. you loose all your lights at once.

I'd suggest purchasing a couple of the above mentioned LED lights, and a couple of compact fluoresent bulbs and hook them up to a 12v source and play with them at night. You'll quicky get an idea of what kind of light you will need where and how many you think you'll need.

If you could go with good reflectors for your fluorescent's would be a good idea to maximize your energy. The LED's won't need reflectors. Both must be kept weather proof for out door usage.

On cold weather CF lamp starting... theres a few that will do pretty good down to fairly cold weather.. I don't have the data handy, but call or Email any reputable Alternative Energy (A.E. ) dealer and ask them, They should be able to give you good advice on this.

I'm guessing you'll want to go mix mode on the lighting... a few LED's and a few CF's at each location.. one for subduded lighting, and kick the CF's on when you want more.

As far as PV power obtainable... it greatly depends where you live. As an example here is one PV map.. Depending on where you live can effect your PV expenditures.

http://www.homepower.com/education/solar_map.cfm

On the lightning dangers... You may get alot of different advice on this one.  The very best protection is to put a well grounded TV tower nearby. There are web sites that will give you the highth to ground coverage area of lightning protection. I'm not sure, but I think it's a ratio of 3 to 1  for example a 30 foot tall tower would protect upto 10 feet at ground level on ither side of the tower. You mount Ionic disapators on the top of your tower. They look like chiminy cleaning brushes pointed upwards. They are expensive, so you can make them using aluminum electrical cable. Just spread the wirs out and clip the ends diagonally so they have a pont to them. Run a heavy braded aluminum or copper lightning cable to the top of your tower to connect to these.  What this does is bleed off any potential charges before it can build up to a level sucificent to cause the lightning to arc. You will usually never get a strike on your tower after doing this. However if you do receive a strike... your tower takes the strike and not your barn. I would make sure my guy wires did not pass over my barn !

Another precaution you can take is to install MOV's (metal Oxide Variestors) across your power leads through out the whole building. They are dirt cheap and will also protect your electrical system from magnetically induced electrical surges that happen when lightning hits the ground a few hundred's of feet away from your location. You can purchanse them to trigger at any particular thresh hold level.. so on a 12v system, you would want something around 18 volts or so ( just a guess here. )

Also while highly frowned upon by the electrical code, and many will hotly disagree with me, I run a total floating ( non grounded ) 12v electrical system. Sense it's not high voltage & we are not worried about getting anyone electocuted with 12volts... an un-grounded system is less likely to become damanged in lightning. And in case anyone says it can't be done.. just point at your car as an example.

One last thought. While throwing 1 or 2 commercial PV's on a roof for a lighting system that will run anywhere from $300 to $600.. just remind yourself, that with a little luck... they should still be running just fine for 40 or more years down the road.. and you have your price locked in while other energies tend to soar. Also I have found my home owned utility system doesn't black out or brown out like theirs tend to do  : )  With a couple of pannels and a $150.00 inverter should provide power for horse clippers and other accessories as well.

Wishing you the best..

John II



Re: Need help re-inventing the wheel (none / 0) (#3)
by Xavy on Fri May 07, 2004 at 10:11:33 PM MST

I agree Homepower is the bible of state of the art.

For exterior lighting I would recommend a separate solar security lighting system.  There is a lot of competition in the area so shop around.  One such supplier is:

http://www.cetsolar.com/securitylights.htm

For interior lighting I suggest using 12VDC lighting system.  Fluorescent lights and information are available through   www.backwoodssolar.com  

Keep in mind low voltage wiring has a tendency to corrode like battery cable connections.  So, soldier and tape all splices and connections to sockets.  Check from time to time like auto battery maintenance.

Both Backwoods and http://www.icpsolar.com/faq-list.php3 have sizing and much, much more information on setting up a stand-alone system.

Learn as much as you can about batteries before moving forward.  Over engineer the batteries for longer life.  And, of course set a maintenance schedule.

Xavy




Keep them from thinking (none / 0) (#4)
by wdyasq on Sat May 08, 2004 at 06:48:15 AM MST

Mechanical timers can be used on light switches to shut them off after a set time.  In your 'tack room' folks will forget to turn the lights off. I did this in a barn many years ago.  It was the only way I could keep folks from running down the battery when they forgot to turn the lights off when they fed the critters in the early/late hours they tended to be fed in.

Remember that skylights are your cheapest and most efficient form of lighting.

The CF lights I have work OK outside in cool temperatures of a Central Ohio winter.  They take a few minutes to warm up an develop full light.  Reflectors wil help in not loosing the light to a night sky.

Do all you can to keep the minders of the horses from having to remember to save your expensive solar energy.  I doubt they will know or appreciate the cost of obtaining the energy and only complain when they don't have it to waste.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen



Re: Keep them from thinking (none / 0) (#5)
by Gary D on Sat May 08, 2004 at 09:23:54 AM MST

A few  thoughts here. 110 volt wall light switches have a hard time with the arc of low voltage DC. Someone with hands on previously posted a solution (a diode or something). I'd wire heavier than you plan ie. if you plan on compact flouresents, wire for the times you might need to go with 50 watt 12 volt incandesent lighting (could get too cold sometimes). And if your solar can't keep up, you can suppliment with a 5 or 6 hp gas engine homebrewed 12 volt alt generator to top off your battery bank until you get the bucks for any extra needed panels. Square D has service panels/ fuse boxes rated for DC. As a horse lover, you definately don't want a fire to hurt them. As stated before just thoughts, take em or leave em. Enjoy your project, and let the electrician "help" someone else. ;-)Gary D.

[ Parent ]


Re: Need help re-inventing the wheel (none / 0) (#6)
by Tekjeff on Sun May 09, 2004 at 01:21:03 AM MST

Some clarification:

We live in Northern Arizona.  Coldest it gets is about 15 Fahrenheit.  Lots of sunshine and wind.  As to how much light I need, about twice as much as a common night-light, thrown by as many bulbs as it takes over an area of less than 100 square feet.  That's why LED's were looking good to me.  Long life, simple to use and low power for the amount of light.  As to how long the system would be on, well all night.  Only the tack room lights would be on demand.  Timer is a good idea though.

Plus I am the last stop on the power grid.  Go any further and everyone is generators and/or solar.  That is what interests me about alternative power sources.  Being able to go it alone should a disaster occur would be nice.

Tekjeff  




Re: Need help re-inventing the wheel (none / 0) (#7)
by Radomike on Sun May 09, 2004 at 11:01:05 PM MST

  You probably already thought of this, but nobody mentioned motion sensor lights for the outside.  Might save some juice & tie in well w/ your surveillance system.
  Mike



Need help re-inventing the wheel | 7 comments (7 topical)
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