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Could it work?


By stop4stuff, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Thu Jun 10, 2004 at 10:48:27 AM MST
Alternative radial alt design... results :)

Hi All :)

This little escapade started when i bounced about a few ideas for alternative alternator designs.
see; http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/5/31/3145/27921

Here's the basic concept (f.1)

And the magnetic flux lines seen with magnetic viewing film (f.2)

The results for the intial test rig are here;
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/6/4/81857/45538

Seen end on, this is the full layout (f.3)

I reinforcend the rotors with glass fibre strands and superglue.

And built a second test rig. (f.4)
This rig uses a Lego 9v Technic Motor - older 3000 rpm type

To run the motor for the test rig, I used wind-up power :)
see; http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/5/26/15451/3307

The chain of events goes like this...
I turn the handle on the wind-up genny making electricity, the DC output runs the motor on the test rig, the rotor spins and the coil gives out AC...

Visualisation and theory are all well and good, practice is more fun :)

Image f.4 above shows the stator, with a single coil of 11 turns 20SWG wire, approx 1m length.

Not expecting much out of such a small coil, I set up the meters.
The motor on the test rig is designed for 3000 rpm @ 9v DC, my wind up genny can put out 38v...
...I wound up the genny...

Genny output, 21v  DC (approx 3000 rpm)
Lego motor/rotor speed, 6500 rpm

Single 11 turn 20SWG coil output...
Max AC open voltage = 0.45v @ ~7500 rpm
...AC short circuit...
rotor approx 5000rpm, AC 0.2v at 2.89 Amps, 0.578 watts :)

Single 25 turn 24SWG (2.4m wire length) coil output...
Max AC open voltage = 1.2v @ ~7500 rpm
...AC short circuit...
rotor approx 5000rpm, AC 0.5v at 1.3 Amps, 0.65 watts 8)

Single 50 turn 28SWG coil output...
Max AC open voltage = 2v AC @ ~7500 rpm
...AC short circuit...
rotor approx 5000rpm, AC 0.075v at 1A, 0.075 watts :(

With the second coil, I also tested the output with a piece of steel on the outside of the stator, volts to rpm remained about the same for more input torque (seemingly less efficient... tho Amps weren't recorded)

All wired and no place to go.

For the stator in the image above, I used 20SWG wire, winding the 'coils' in situ. Each phase uses 4m length wire, there are 3 on the stator. Each 'leg' is 9 strands, 36 legs in all, equivalent to 6 coils of 9 turns to each phase.
Somewhere along the line, I must have wound the 2nd phase wrong, or it shorted.
Open AC voltages at 6000 rpm 1st phase = 1.2v, 2nd phase = 0.7v, 3rd phase = 1.2v
I tested short circuit amps across phase 1, the rotor about 3000 rpm,  1.49A.
All attempts at 3 phase testing were depressing due to the 2nd phase probs :(

Bits of the stator former broke as well :(

On the up side, I was getting Power out of the coils...
Is it compareable to conventional rotor performance?

With a larger diameter rotor/stator there would be more space to wrap the coils over the edge of the magnet, maybe increasing the output.

...so...

With the 50 or so 1"(l) x 1/4"(w) x 1/4"(h) neo blocks I've got, I should be able to make a couple of 6" or a 12" rotor :)

The fun is waiting to get out... somehow 8))
paul

Could it work? | 8 comments (8 topical)

Re: Could it work? (none / 0) (#1)
by windstuffnow on Thu Jun 10, 2004 at 11:31:43 AM MST

  It's been quite fun following along with your lego designs.  Kind of makes me want to get a set and start playing...  Keep up the great work!

  On your low voltage with the second phase, you may be getting some canceling because of the phase overlap of the magnets.  You might try swiching the Start and end wires to correct this.

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Could it work? (none / 0) (#2)
by stop4stuff on Thu Jun 10, 2004 at 11:58:11 AM MST

Hi Ed,

I tried every combintaion :(
the low volts was open measurement for the 2nd phase :(

living, learning, & having fun 8))
paul

[ Parent ]



Re: Could it work? (none / 0) (#3)
by iFred on Thu Jun 10, 2004 at 01:11:38 PM MST


Strap some soft (magnet attracting) metal to the outside of that core and see what happens!!
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!


Re: Could it work? (none / 0) (#4)
by stop4stuff on Fri Jun 11, 2004 at 03:33:24 AM MST

Hi iFred,

I tried your idea.
I used a piece of steel drinks can (single layer) wrapped around the stator secured with a couple of cable ties.
I tested one phase of the stator with and without the steel at 2250 rpm...
(note: measured rpm... originally i guestimated the 1.49A short circuit rpm... way out!)

Without steel, short circuit, 0.15v @ 2.15A AC.
With steel,  short circuit, 0.12v @ 1.94A AC.
Also with the steel, it took more effort to get the rotor to 2250 rpm.

For me, these results confirm my earlier suspiscion that this alt could be more efficient without ferrous materials.
I think that the addition of the steel around the stator lessens the opposing force of the magnets and weakens the magnetic flux, hence the lower output. The attraction of the magnets to the steel is reflected in the increased torque needed to spin the rotor.

I got the leg and coil numbers wrong originally, they should be, 8 legs/phase (24 total) equiv to 4 coils/phase or 12 coils total...
...mental note: 'stop making mental notes' :P

At 2250 rpm, the magnetic flux at the coil centers is travelling at about 12.875 mph, this is equivalent to the coil/magnet centers at 10" of a twin rotor axial alt at 450 rpm.

paul

[ Parent ]



Re: Could it work? (none / 0) (#6)
by DanB on Fri Jun 11, 2004 at 06:52:39 AM MST

Perhaps try wrapping a good thick layer of soft steel bailing wire around the stator!
It probably wont make it more efficient, but it might increase output at any given rpm.  Not sure how you did the steel cans, but Id suspect bailing wire might reduce eddy currents.

[ Parent ]


Re: Could it work? (none / 0) (#5)
by wooferhound on Fri Jun 11, 2004 at 06:21:51 AM MST

You used Steel Drink Cans. Where did you find one of those? ALL of the drink cans here in Alabama are aluminum...

}=- W o o f -={



Re: Could it work? (none / 0) (#7)
by stop4stuff on Fri Jun 11, 2004 at 06:55:23 AM MST

The last lot of Tennant's Super :)
UK jungle juice that kicks (9% ABV lager... hic!)

I got some strange looks testing the cans with a magnet in the shop ;)

paul

[ Parent ]



visualisation pics + ferrous is bad 4 this design (none / 0) (#8)
by stop4stuff on Fri Jun 11, 2004 at 11:43:48 AM MST

Here we Gooooo....

All common alternators rely upon magnets (or field coils) to attract to something.
The principle goes like this.
The first magnet, south pole out, on a rotor passes a coil. The attracting magnetic flux passing through the center of the coil makes a pulse of electricity. The next magnet to pass the coil has it's North pole out, and makes another pulse of electricity. Together the pulses of electricity make AC current.

Two attracting magnets 12mm apart seen under magnetic viewing film.

The center flux line is what would create electricity in a twin rotor axial alt.

Conventional alternator types. Magnets are pink/blue for opposing poles.


Once I fell out of the box, different ideas sprung to mind and this is my thinking behind this design.

Two repelling magnets 12mm apart.

Now there is no central flux line, but stronger flux lines thru and around the magnets.

A magnet falling thru the center of a coil will generate an electrical pulse.
With today's technology, it is near on impossible to get a ring of magnet rotating so that each magnet passes thru a coil (perfect world stuff).
I got to thinking how else could the magnets be arranged to pass thru the coil whilst travelling about an axis...

Here's what I came up with.

A. represents a magnet passing thru the centre of a coil.
B. the same magnet broken in two in a larger coil.
C. two magnets at an angle and the coil bent to match.
D. Two magnets and a smaller coil with it's legs at the same relationship to the magnetic flux as with the legs of the coils in A,B and C :)

My alternative radial alternator design, again, magnets are pink/blue for opposing poles.

Here's an image of the repelling magnets with a piece of the steel 6mm from on side of both magnets (upper part of image).

The steel disrupts the magnetic flux when the magnets are opposing... in my books, not a good thing for this design ;)

Ooooo... I just found another box to get out of...

later,

paul

p.s. pls tell me if any of the above is wrong...
i'm still trying to get to grips with it myself...
...On with the fun 8)



Could it work? | 8 comments (8 topical)
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Related Links
· magnet
· http://www .fieldlines.com/story/2004/5/31/3145/27921
· http://www .fieldlines.com/story/2004/6/4/81857/45538
· http://www .fieldlines.com/story/2004/5/26/15451/3307
· Also by stop4stuff

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