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Magnetohydrodynamic generator


By stop4stuff, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Thu Jul 29, 2004 at 12:35:05 AM MST
Simple hydro power?

Ok this may be long winded, and be warned... you will see Lego!

To start with, some background info...

Magnetohydrodynamic propulsion (A.K.A. MHD motor, MHD drive or Catterpiller Drive).
This system was 'used' in the film 'The Hunt for Red October'.

This started out with this thread on HV Community ( http://forum.4hv.org/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1287 ).
After some research I found some info about the system.

And a nice image of a 'boat' with a MHD drive.
http://www.physics.brocku.ca/courses/1p22/images/f21019.jpg

The basics of how it all works.
http://www.sanu.ac.yu/English/Shipbuilding/Tema4.htm

For the MHD drive unit, the information here is very helpful although incomplete.
http://www.spots.ab.ca/~belfroy/magnetoWaterPropulsion.html

Armed with this info here's what I came up with...

----

The 'motor' contains no moving parts.
The casing is made from acrylic sheet cut to size.
The electrodes are stainless steel, the stainless is very slightly attracted to a magnet. Experiments with the stainless in electrolysers reveals that the stainless is corrsion resistant, even when using sodium hydroxide solutions.
The enamelled copper wires are soldered to the stainless. To do this, I used flux paste, gas cooker flame and normal electrical solder.
The magnets are NdFeB 1/4"(h) x 1/4"(w) x 1"(l) (available from http://www.neo-magnet-emporium.co.uk )
The motor dimensions are approx 1"(h) x 1/2"(w) x 1 1/4"(l), the top magnet and casing fit nicely inside a hollowed out Lego 2 x 4 brick.


----

Initial stationary testing using salted tap water and food colouring (as 'smoke') produces a good flow through the motor using a 8.4v 250mAh NiCad pack.

The salt water is at about the same proprtions as sea water, i.e. 35g table salt to 1 Liter water.
A breakdown of the salts found in seawater is here.
http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/detailed.jsp?artid=2462&type=6&root=5&parent=5&cat=51

All good fun :)
The motor does move the boat... very slowly.
With this setup there are gas bubbles produced, suggesting that the components and power supply are disproportionate.
(i understand the MHD drive to be an inefficient propulsion system.)

----

And now for the interesting stuff...

As with an electric motor, the device can be used to generate electricity.

High power generators and motors can be made using gas superheated to plasma...
http://www.plasma.inpe.br/LAP_Portal/LAP_Site/Text/Classical_Applications.htm

There's more info about plasma flow here.
http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/electrolyticflows.htm

And a method for a MHD generator here.
http://users.erols.com/sclufer/mhd.htm

Before I mounted the motor in the Lego, I ran tap water through the chamber.

And got an open DC voltage reading (0.136v), and 0.001A short circuit on a cheap meter.

Considering the size of this unit (the plates have a total of 2.88 sq cm exposed to the water) I was very surprised at the output.

So now I'm thinking the MHD generator, whilst not particularly efficient has some nice features;
No moving parts, simple construction, debris and wildlife can pass through the generator.

And then I thought, what if the water passing through the generator was flowing from one chamber to another and back again (like an egg timer)?

What if the MHD generator could be used in a rotary fluidyne heat difference engine ( http://www.rotarystirlingengines.com/rotacola.htm )?

Would the water in the system have to be replenished over time?

Food4Thought:::
Could the MHD motor/generator principles explain why magnetic water treatments seem to work?
Do the materials with postive ions attract or get broken down by releasing electrons to the grounded metal water pipe?

Having fun 8))
paul

Magnetohydrodynamic generator | 7 comments (7 topical)

Re: Magnetohydrodynamic generator (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by RobD on Thu Jul 29, 2004 at 06:17:37 AM MST

Hi Paul,
Very interesting stuff!
All stainless steel is not the same. There are easily 50 different 'mixes', some with no magnetic properties of which I think 316 is among. Their corrosion resistances are not equal either.
Were you thinking of a wave engine for this application to generate power?




Re: Magnetohydrodynamic generator (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by stop4stuff on Thu Jul 29, 2004 at 09:13:43 AM MST

Hi Rob,

The stainless I used was aquired scrap (? grade), this stainless corrodes more in salt water than in my electrolysis applications.
 - 316 stainless is on my shopping list.

I had a couple of ideas for generators, but they'd have to be large 'seaside' scale to be any good and then the magnets would probably be better used in a more traditional wave turbine.

I'm sort of thinking along the lines of a small heat engine sitting in sunlight moving the fluid between chambers charging smaller batteries.

Another possibility is the generation of power from rain water... suck the juice from acid rain!

I do need to test a MHD generator with salt water to ascertain voltage/current and flow levels...

more fun to be had yet 8))
paul

[ Parent ]



Re: Magnetohydrodynamic generator (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Jul 29, 2004 at 09:59:10 AM MST

Magnetohydrodynamic devices have a lot of problems.

I understand the Russians scrapped them for subs.  The idea had been to avoid the propellor noise - but the MHD system turned out to be louder.   (Hunt for Red October to the contrary - Hollywood does fiction, occasonally inspired by an odd fact or two that is then distorted into oblivion in order to create a more salable story.)

One of the biggest is the resistance of the medium.  Think about how much loss you get in a copper jenny, with a fractional ohm.  Then consider the resistance of the water - as your ions are repeatedly accellerated by the field, pulling energy from it, then slam into something and dump the energy as heat and sideward accelleration of the water.

Another is electrolytic corrosion.  I expect if you run that device for any length of time you'll strip the metal off one of the electrodes, with some of it ending up in the water as ions, some plated out on the opposite electrode.  (Note that if you're using copper, what ends up in the water is HORRIBLY toxic.  Boat anti-fouling bottom paint works because it conatins a small amount of copper which corrodes into the seawater slowly over years, poisoning any marine life that tries to live on the hull.)

I'd expect an MHD generator in a saltwater medium to move as much metal as if it were a battery generating the same current.  That makes for very short electrode life.  (And if you're going to erode the metal that fast, why not just use a primary cell in the first place?)

Interesting experiment, though.  Please take a look at the electrodes and/or evaporate the water to see how much metal went into solution.  I'd love to find out if this doesn't erode the electrodes as fast as I think it should.



Re: Magnetohydrodynamic generator (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by iFred on Thu Jul 29, 2004 at 10:59:30 PM MST


Wow, that was interesting reading!! Thanks for the share. I always wondered how the MHD worked, but could'nt get a handle on it. The links showed it exactly, very cool!

I wonder if there is a way of protecting the electrods in some matter, maybee a spray on plastic, if it's magnetic, it would not impeed the flow, if it's electric it would stop all together. very nice job!
Thanks again!
Fred.

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: Magnetohydrodynamic generator (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Jul 30, 2004 at 05:50:23 PM MST

I wonder if there is a way of protecting the electrods in some matter, maybee a spray on plastic, if it's magnetic, it would not impeed the flow, if it's electric it would stop all together.

MHD is just a normal faraday's law generator/motor with the fluid as the moving conductor in place of the copper wire, and the electrodes as the brushes.  You MUST drive a current through the fluid, which means the electrodes must donate and accept electrons to/from the ions in the solution.  Insulate them to protect them from electrolytic corrosion and you've broken the circuit.

[ Parent ]



Re: Magnetohydrodynamic generator (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Jul 30, 2004 at 05:57:14 PM MST

MHD is just a normal faraday's law generator/motor with the fluid as the moving conductor in place of the copper wire, and the electrodes as the brushes.  You MUST drive a current through the fluid, which means the electrodes must donate and accept electrons ...

Of course if you want to use AC motor you could use the conductive medium as a squirrel-cage and have only circulating currents in the fluid.  Then you could do an induction motor.

That's probably what the Russians did - and the AC hum turned straight into sound waves.  B-)

I wonder if seawater is conductive enough that you could do an induction generator?  (Bet it's too resistive - at least to resistive for you to recover your excitation power at normal flow rates.  But might be interesting to try.)

Note that you wouldn't want to run this in open water.  The induced current might electrocute or thermal-shock any fish that swam through it.

[ Parent ]



Re: Magnetohydrodynamic generator (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Walter on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 09:22:16 AM MST

The Earths field has a component perpendicular to the flow of the Gulf Stream. This induces a voltage perpendicular to both the flow and the field. All thats needed is some electrodes in the right place to tap off the energy.




Magnetohydrodynamic generator | 7 comments (7 topical)
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Related Links
· magnet
· http://for um.4hv.org/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1287
· http://www .physics.brocku.ca/courses/1p22/images/f21019.jpg
· http://www .sanu.ac.yu/English/Shipbuilding/Tema4.htm
· http://www .spots.ab.ca/~belfroy/magnetoWaterPropulsion.html
· http://www .neo-magnet-emporium.co.uk
· http://www .science.edu.sg/ssc/detailed.jsp?artid=2462&type=6&root=5&parent=5&cat=51
· http://www .plasma.inpe.br/LAP_Portal/LAP_Site/Text/Classical_Applications.htm
· http://www .fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/electrolyticflows.htm
· http://use rs.erols.com/sclufer/mhd.htm
· http://www .rotarystirlingengines.com/rotacola.htm
· Also by stop4stuff

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