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Blades...


By hvirtane, Section Wind
Posted on Thu Jul 29, 2004 at 01:32:46 PM MST
an easy way to make it?

The idea for the blades
is coming from this machine.



We made with Taisto Suihonen something similar
with 3 m long 100 mm x 10 mm wooden boards.

We made it with four blades.
For each blade there are seven boards
on the top of each others.
On the tips the boards are 25 mm on the top of
each others.  
We cut every second of each of
the crossing boards to get
the blades on the same plane.

Taisto used a power plane to smooth
the blades.
We used normal white glue and some screws to
to fix the boards.
Finally we used a lot of linseed oil
and oil paint on the top.
On the tips we used
some fiberglass resin
to protect them.
In the center there are
two plywood disks
of 8 mm thick on the both sides
of the wind rotor.

The wind rotor is fixed through the center
by five bolts to the nacelle of a
permanent magnet generator.

The generator is quite similar
as the original 'OP Volvo'  alternator.

The wind rotor stood all the bad weather
and storms of the Finnish winter
2003-2004 without any problems.

The advantages seems to be
that it never goes very fast
and it starts really easily
with low wind speeds.

On slow wind speeds it works better
than a perfect airfoil three blade wind
rotor with a little bit bigger dimensions,
which was used before this rotor.

The general method how we made it is
something like this:



You can make using this system quite good airfoils by cutting the wooden blades something like this.



I think that it is good to make blades
wide on the tips to get them working
well on really slow wind speeds.

Anybody else made the blades
wider on the tips than on the roots?

- Hannu

Blades... | 11 comments (11 topical)

Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by witapple on Thu Jul 29, 2004 at 02:56:13 PM MST

I find that blades that are slim at the tips turn faster and produce more power that blades with wide tips. Sure the wide tips will give you great start up torque but it will also have huge amounts of drag once they get moving. I am no expert but I guess it depends on what you want.
Dan



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by johnlm on Thu Jul 29, 2004 at 05:39:58 PM MST

Looks like a slight variation of the great old American farm windmill that is used to pump water.



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by hvirtane on Fri Jul 30, 2004 at 09:46:51 AM MST

With this method the blades can easily be made
to use good airfoil sections as shown on
my picture. With American style wind pumps
the blades are normally made of curved flat
metal sheets.

In any case, I think that a kind of self-regulation
is good for wind turbines working
on slow wind speed conditions.
It can be achieved if the blades
are built so that they don't
go too fast even if the
wind is fast.

On the other hand I think that with most wind
turbines the air hitting the blades will move
toward the tips of the blades. If the tips are
wide, that creates lots of power?

- Hannu

[ Parent ]



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by windstuffnow on Fri Jul 30, 2004 at 12:28:39 PM MST

  Theoretically, a given size blade in a given wind will extract the same amount of power.  The main factor will be the efficiency of the blade itself in extracting this power.  
  The difference between the two is simply the speed and torque at which they operate.  1hp is 1hp no matter how you look at it... whether it comes in the form of 100 rpm at 52 ft lbs or 500 rpm at 10.5 ft lbs.
   Its much easier to design an alternator to run at higher speeds than at lower speeds.   Also, the skinny airfoils are a bit more efficient.

A rose by any other name....
Have Fun
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by hvirtane on Fri Jul 30, 2004 at 01:48:47 PM MST

Its much easier to design an alternator to run at higher speeds than at lower speeds.
Also, the skinny airfoils are a bit more efficient.

I agree that slow speed alternators
are difficult to design.

The problem I'm trying to solve is to extract
power from slow speed winds. For that we have
realized that blades, which are wide on the tips
might outperform skinny blades.

So we just decided to make the alts
even slower speeding...

On the other hand we have realized
that these blades, which are wide on the tips
need very little if any furling methods,
because on high winds they will
not spin much faster.

The best possible efficiency is not the
problem, which I'm trying to solve, but
in any case I think that the air, which hits
the blades will travel to the tips of
of the blades and then the tips can extract
power from the air...
as the new GGS model is suggesting.
Please see:
http://mystic.math.neu.edu/gorban/Gorlov2001.pdf

One more reason to make blades this way is
that it is quite easy.

You can of course make blades of piles
of wooden boards so that they are not at all
wider on tips, too...

- Hannu



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by brett on Sat Jul 31, 2004 at 09:11:37 AM MST

Hi would you mind taking the time to specify/sketch the cut on every second blade that you were mentioning, please? I like that blade design for low wind apps. It is smart.
Thanks
brett



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by hvirtane on Sat Jul 31, 2004 at 04:47:48 PM MST

Hi,

basically you just cut off from
every second board the width of the
board in the middle.

The only difficult part is
how to start it so that it
goes neatly to spread
on the tips. After started
it is very very easy.
You can first try with pieces of
cardboard how it goes.

I think that it might be not
difficult to mark with paint
on the boards, how much to cut them,
after whole pile is ready, to get
good airfoils out.

I will try making more
sketches tomorrow. Now
it is a bit late...
Had to do something else
the whole day and it
is in the night a quarter to 2
o'clock after midnight now.

- Hannu

[ Parent ]



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by hvirtane on Sun Aug 01, 2004 at 09:22:10 AM MST

Here are two pictures with
texts on how we started
piling boards on the
tops of each others.





- Hannu

[ Parent ]



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by windrules on Sat Jul 31, 2004 at 05:38:49 PM MST

Hi Hannu,
           I also like the way you are thinking on this. Can you give us more info. on the alternator you are using and at what watts output does the normal blade catch up (or wind speed).I guess you are using axial flux but can you give info on diameter and mags and windings.
Regards,
Mos



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by hvirtane on Sun Aug 01, 2004 at 09:51:30 AM MST

The turbine is not with me,
I haven't got any place for such one.
We built it with Taisto Suihkonen
and it is at his place.

The problem Taisto has been facing
is regular slow wind speeds.

So finally we made the wind rotor
with the specifications as above.
(3 m dia, four blades each made of seven
10 mm x 100 mm wooden boards and
rough airfoils cut after.)

The alternator is quite similar
as the original 'Volvo OP' alternator.
Single phase axial alternator,
single magnet rotor with laminates.

It is made of a Mercedes front wheel,
with the disk dia 28 cm.
24 neo magnets, round 12 mm x 30 mm
each. We have tried with different
coils and at present there are
40 turns in each coil. The stator
is made of a 2 cm thick 'Industrial Formica'
plate and for the laminates we have
tried several methods, plastic coated
iron wire seems to be working OK.

The exact figures about
watts available at different
wind speeds are not available,
because Taisto never measured them.

At present the setup is done so that
it almost at once when started moving,
starts charging 12 V batteries.

A secret by Taisto to achieve that,
was to use a transformer before
the rectifier (1) so that
the voltage rises high at slow speeds.
The current can bypass the transformer when
the speed increases, because there is another
rectifier (2) parallel to the transformer,
which leads the current to the batteries
directly.

There is as well a side furling system,
similar as used by Hugh Piggott
and many others with the gravity
balanced tail system.

I will try posting pictures of
the machine later.

- Hannu

[ Parent ]



Re: Blades... (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by johnlm on Sat Jul 31, 2004 at 09:42:42 PM MST

You are right about the self limiting on speed on this style of blade .  I suspect it is due to large drag losses as the rpms get higher.  Also this type has good low wind speed starting torque due to the wide tips -just like the farm windmill has to pull the pump from the low point it usually comes to rest at it needs a good starting torque but would not increase speed much after the wind got above 25-30 mph. I carved a 2 bladed prop (with more or less a std ClarkY airfoil) with the tips slightly wider than the root one time and it seemed to work ok except I have never left it mounted up in a high wind to see what the self limiting effect would be.



Blades... | 11 comments (11 topical)
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