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Six Phase (again)


By LEXX, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Wed Aug 25th, 2004 at 08:33:24 PM MST
Sorry about the size of picture

A little while ago I made a post about 6 phase, at the time I didn't have a picture of what i was thinking so now, here it is:



I am thinking that this should be a little better, you should be able to use about 40% of the wire per coil (x2 so 80%) and spread the coil flatter than half the thickness per coil therefore getting a thinner stator with an almost constant electrical output per magnet.  Of course this is all just in my head i don't have the formulas to test it, my next genny will look like this i think.  
Oh yeah, i meant to take the lead from the red coil at the bottom of the pic not the top but i was making supper at the time and messed up, just in case you caught that.
Anyways, can anyone see any problems/benefits to this?
LEXX
Six Phase (again) | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by LEXX on Wed Aug 25th, 2004 at 08:34:59 PM MST
(User Info)

And the bottom of the pic is cut off, the tails are all connected in "star"




Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Thu Aug 26th, 2004 at 01:44:12 AM MST
(User Info)

That should be ok.
If you
star ABC and DEF separately you will have parallel 3 phase.  If you star the lot ( join the 2 stars together) it will run as 6 phase. 6 phase will have a lower cut in and possibly a slightly lower efficiency at the top of the curve.
You can try both options or even change from one to the other with a switch.
Flux

[ Parent ]


Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by tecker on Thu Aug 26th, 2004 at 02:55:52 AM MST
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  If you get the voltage your looking for from the six phases this is good .The problem is space requirements limit the size of the coils so you end up with less voltage than you need or the alignment is such that one phase cancels out another.



Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Aug 26th, 2004 at 01:37:02 PM MST
(User Info)

Six phase IS three phase - with the center taps of the three phases tied together.  It's just another way of connecting the three-phase windings.

(Compare your PhA and PhD coil geometries, with respect to the magnet poles, to see what I mean.)

In fact, as I read your drawing, you explicitly connected this genny so you have two copies of a three phase Y, rather than the center-taps-tied in the "six phase" connection.



Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by LEXX on Thu Aug 26th, 2004 at 07:08:20 PM MST
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Yes, I fully understand that, what I'm asking is whether there would be an advantage to this configuration compared to regular 3 phase.  With regular 3 phase you have a dead spot in the middle of each coil with this you would effectively fill it in with the other 3 phase set.  
LEXX

[ Parent ]


Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Thu Aug 26th, 2004 at 10:26:53 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I think I basicly see whats going on... and it would basicly be like 3 phase.  I wonder if your whole goal is to "fill" the holes in the coils which we'd normally  have with the 4:3 3 phase arrangement?

I think the bottom line, is how much copper can we get in a given space - having most of the windings in about the right place.  In that respect, it'd be the same - it would probably run more smoothly, but any 3 phase configuration is going to be pretty smooth with regard to vibration.  When the magnets are "working" the hardest - the torque on them (or on the coils) is the most, and when they pass over the holes in the coils I think it's the least.  In a single phase machine this creates lots of vibration... in a 3 phase machine its much smoother.  The advantage of whats being proposed here... is it might be a bit smoother yet... the magnets would be passing over thinner coils (because you have them stacked) - so they'd not be working as hard.. but there'd be no holes - so there would be less vibration and the magnets would always be working.  In the end though, I'm not sure there'd be much advantage unless you think you can fit more copper in this way.

There would surely be no harm in trying it - it would work, and it would run very smoothly I think.  The torque on the stator would be twice as smooth as "normal" 3 phase where we just have 3 coils/4magnets...  
(but "normal" 3 phase is pretty smooth, I dont think vibration  is an issue)
The only improvement in power/rpm you'd see, I think.. is if you can fit more pounds of copper in a given space this way.  

[ Parent ]



Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Fri Aug 27th, 2004 at 01:25:02 AM MST
(User Info)

The critical thing with filling those gaps is to do so with a lower overall resistance. With coils side by side, the length of turn is as short as you can make it. If you overlap coils the length of turn has to be increased a great deal to allow the end windings to cross.

With thin windings such as a single rotor with laminated backing disc, the increase in length to allow the cross is not that great and it is reasonably easy to do and there is likely to be a considerable gain.

With a dual rotor the stator is normally quite thick and the increase in turn length to allow the cross over is so great that you can easily end up with a winding of higher resistance than the usual one with un-wound bits.  Also overlapping coils on a thick stator is a somewhat difficult thing to do and to have any chance of a better result you will probably need to form each coil and glue it together and then assemble the whole thing.

It's not so much a case of how much copper you can get in as how many active conductors you can get for the least resistance.  Remember the active bits are the radial bits under the magnets, the rest of the wire connecting these across the ends produce nothing but add resistance.

You can not fill the gaps with single phase, but any polyphase winding can be used.
They have similar performance from the generator point of view, but behave differently when rectified.

[ Parent ]



Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by LEXX on Fri Aug 27th, 2004 at 08:46:03 PM MST
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"You can not fill the gaps with single phase, but any polyphase winding can be used.
They have similar performance from the generator point of view, but behave differently when rectified."
Couldn't you make a 90 electrical degree offset two phase.  I'm not sure that came out right, couldn't you have two sets of single phase rectified seperately so they didn't cance half of each other?  same as normal single phase but with another set of coils turned half a magnet width?
LEXX

[ Parent ]


Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Aug 27th, 2004 at 11:11:53 PM MST
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Yes

[ Parent ]


Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Flux on Sat Aug 28th, 2004 at 12:26:53 AM MST
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Yes 2 phase with the displacement 90 deg is a perfectly valid option, it uses one more wire and 2 more diodes compared to 3 phase.  It does make use of the un-wound space and also cures the single phase pulsating torque problem. Once you go for overlapping coils it is probably easier to go for 3 phase.
Flux

[ Parent ]


Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by LEXX on Sun Aug 29th, 2004 at 02:31:15 PM MST
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Good point, Two phase would just use a thicker stator with no savings on rectifiers even.

[ Parent ]


Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Aug 27th, 2004 at 06:45:52 PM MST
(User Info)

Yes, I fully understand that, what I'm asking is whether there would be an advantage to this configuration compared o regular 3 phase.  With regular 3 phase you have a dead spot in the middle of each coil with this you would effectively fill it in with the other 3 phase set.

Ah.

Actually, what you were referring to a "regular three phase" was just the non-overlapping coil axial-flux alternator design described often on this board.  (Who did come up with that one, anyhow?)

The one youre referring to as "6 phase" is the overlapping coil three-phase wind that we occasionally see discussed for axial-flux designs.  But it's actually the common wind for radil flux designs (such as the induction motor to magneto conversions).

Yes, that should "just work".  You can put the winds in parallel for more current at a given RPM, or in series for more voltage.  Or you can wind them with half as many turns of thicker wire and put them in series for the same voltage and more current, and so on.

As I understand it, the single layer of coils is simply a construction advantage, getting better cooling and easier construction at the cost of using twice as many magnets to induce power in  given number of coils.  If you do the overlapping coil version you need to bend the wire to keep the magnet gap small.  With an air gap rather than an iron core through the coil even a slight increase in the gap would make for a major cut in flux - losing your gains in magnet-use efficiency.  Bending the coils (and having a thicker section of the stator just outside the pole-swept area) makes the stator (and perhaps the whole assembly) harder to construct.  Also, the bend required to miss the next coil over means a slightly longer wire path and thus more resistive losses.

While you can generate twice the power for the same number of magnets and in about the same space, it also means putting twice as much resistive heat in that space.  Since the cooling is the main limit on how much power you can generate, it may not actually help you to have the extra coils.  You'd just have to cut the output current in half from what you thought you'd gotten it up to, to get the heating back where it dumps the same heat in the stator.  Your maximum power is back where you started (or maybe slightly lower due to the slightly longer wire), but your cutin speed is improved.

[ Parent ]



Re: Six Phase (again) (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Flux on Sat Aug 28th, 2004 at 01:01:26 AM MST
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Three phase has 3 leads to the load and the displacement between windings is 120 deg.
6 phase has 6 wires with a displacement of 60 deg. In general it is only used to drive rectifiers.
I agree that it is derived from 3 phase,but it alters the rectifier operation..

I also agree that the term conventional 3 phase is confusing, conventional is what you are used to.
In Europe the conventional is usually a 2 layer winding with 3 coils per pole.
In the USA I gather from the discussion that it is usual to leave half the coils out and wind coincident poles with a concentric winding.
The non overlapping coil winding is just another variation where the coil numbers are halved again, at which point they fit without overlapping.

If you use oversize magnets you can make an alternator with very low resistance and heating is not a problem.

If you choose to use less magnet then the output is usually limited by resistance, if you choose the number of turns for cut in, and the resistance is too high you will not get the required power within the speed limits of the propeller.

The winding that will come out best is the one that will have the least resistance
for the same cut in voltage, whether or not it has un wound bits.

If the limitation is heating, again the lower resistance winding comes out better.

6 phase does cut in at a lower speed for the same number of turns due to the rectifier operating differently, but the gain is marginal.

[ Parent ]



Six Phase (again) | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial)
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