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Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor


By DanOpto, Section Wind
Posted on Sat Aug 7th, 2004 at 08:34:59 AM MST
A pressure assisted operating principle for horizontal-axis wind turbines

http://www.windpower.com.cn/

A chinese researcher is looking for help in researching tip boost for wind turbine blades.

Interesting idea.

Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by gibsonfvse on Sat Aug 7th, 2004 at 08:59:28 AM MST
(User Info)

Hmm... he has graphs... I'd be interested in seeing the source.  I don't think there is enough massflow to make the idea of "jet propulsion" sound, but maybe there is enough massflow to do boundary layer blowing or other sorts of aerodynamic modifications.  All of that is assuming the air really does what he claims it does (speeds up greatly in traveling from the blade roots to the blade tips).



Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Aug 7th, 2004 at 09:06:29 AM MST
(User Info)

If I've read the Sandia work correctly, well designed HWATs with high TSRs can approach the Betz limit within a percent or less.  There is little room for improvement there.

The prototype of this mill has a high angle and thus a low TSR - already a loser.  But it also has no twist.  So the bulk of the drive is occurring on the middle and inner regions (which have smaller swept area than the outer regions and thus little power to collect) while the outer portion of the blade is actually acting as an air brake.

The comparison is between this inefficient blade with the holes plugged, and the same blade with the holes open, allowing airflow from the hub to exit near the ends.  This airflow is apparently intended to give the blade a push, something like a water sprinkler or a hero turbine, or make the flow remain laminar when it would have otherwise peeled off due to the improper angle of attack.  But what it's actually doing, IMHO, is breaking the suction in the outer section, making it act as a MUCH LESS EFFICIENT airbrake.  Sure it works better than the same non-optimum blade in its solid form.  But it's nowhere near what a good twisted blade design would do.

Also:  Air collected at the hub has to be accellearted sideways as it travels toward the tip, and this retards the motion of the blade.  To get that momentum back will be an interesting play.

I doubt designs of this, or ANY, form, will ever produce a significant improvement over a properly-designed, high-TSR, twisted blade.  You need to find a flaw in Betz' work to do that.

Now maybe some variation might be able to get a non-twisted blade to approach the performance of a twisted one, by pulling air from the inner section which is mismatched one way and moving it to the outer section which is mismatched the other way.  But given the friction in the long passage I'm inclined to doubt that it will ever do as well as a twisted blade.  And the need for an inner passage and surface holes makes it unlikely that the non-twisted format will produce an advantage in fabrication cost and effort.



Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by finnsawyer on Mon Aug 9th, 2004 at 10:01:22 AM MST
(User Info)

Seems to me they could get a performance boost by taking advantage of the speed (and power) boost as air goes around a spherical or streamlined hub.  Nature does the work automatically and its a lot simpler.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by LEXX on Sat Aug 7th, 2004 at 10:00:16 AM MST
(User Info)

Sounds about right to me ULR, also if there were to be any great increase in efficiency there would need to be quite a large hole through the blade itself so limit friction and provide the "jets" with a good airflow, this should either weaken the blade or wreak the airfoil efficiency depending on the compromise in a larger prop.
LEXX



Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Flux on Sat Aug 7th, 2004 at 12:50:09 PM MST
(User Info)

Seems like a new slant on the old Enfield-Andreu design where air centrifuged through the rotor was used to drive an air turbine at ground level.

With the ammount of air they were moving it seems odd that they didn't notice any benefit if there is any. The enfield did it for a good reason,but to expect an energy gain from this idea seems a bit like lifting yourself up in a bucket to me.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Nando (nando37-at-tx-dot-rr-dot-com Correct theanti-spam) on Sat Aug 7th, 2004 at 05:45:51 PM MST
(User Info)

Jet tip helicopter blades were tried several decades ago.

Also,  Ram Jets Tips.

Regards

Nando




Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by JF on Sun Aug 8th, 2004 at 03:09:14 AM MST
(User Info)

Dear Friends

This is an interesting concept - however please consult the following sources and extra material:

1: The famous Dr Ulrich Hutter who as the then leader and chief designer of the German firm of Schempp-Hirth in the period just after WW2 designed and built a 3meter single-blade high-speed wind turbine using this suction principle.
[source:  "Wíndkraft gestern und heute" - Karl Handschuh - Oekobuch Verlad Germany 1991 - ISBN 3-922964-33-8

2: The famous French-British Enfield-Andrieu 100 kW 25 meter diameter two-bladed wind turbine from the late 1950's and later re-erected and successfully operated for many years in Algeria.
[source:  "Vetroenergeticheskiye agregaty" Ya.I Shefter - Mashinostroyeniye Press Moscow USSR/Russia 1972.
translated as - "Wind-powered Machines" - Ya.I. Shefter - NASA TT F-15,149 USA 1974.

  1. : Different research papers by Sandia USA/Canada for Darrius-rotors - includingthe report - "Vertical Axis Wind Turbine Power Regulation Through Centrifugally Pumped Lift Spoiling" - P.C. Klimas, JF Sladky - Sandia USA 1985.
  2. :  And of course the different experiments with ram-jet blade-tips for lift-off rotors for different types of aircraft - done in the USA and UK during the 1950's and 1960's - inspired by aircraft design-concept work done in Germany during the latter part of WW2.
[source:  "Jane's all the World's Aircraft" - annual edition 1950's-1960's]

5:  A paper from the middle of the 1990's by the German Prof Dr. Ing. Ludwig Elsbett [of diesel engine fame] showing an illustration of a possible technology in - "Das Kohlendioxid-Verursacherrecht - Co2 ist der wertvollste Rohstoff des Lebens".
[source:  "Der Pflanzenol-motor fur die Naturwirtschaft" - yearly edition Elsbett-Umwelt-Technik - Roth Germany]

6:   Recent interesting work done by Prof. Salter from Edinburgh University in Scotland UK - concerning a specialized type of Darrius rotor-technology - and presented at a conference in Crete in 2002.

Greetings - JF  



Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by DougSelsam (Doug @ Selsam.com) on Sun Aug 8th, 2004 at 01:07:13 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.Selsam.com

Super-Lame!
Perpetual Motion!
So the airfoils are cited as inneffective, so they will be augmented by jets, powered by a centrifugal pump, located within the existing "ineffective" airfoils.  Only thing they forgot is that the centrifugal pump is powered by those same "ineffective" airfoils.  There is no addition of energy to the system.  To the contrary there is an energy drain, a drag on those airfoils, to power the jets.
Don't these guys in China have any sort of engineering education or even common sense?
If this is really a top research organization over there, maybe they should leave the heavy lifting in the creativity department to western minds.
Then again I guess we have plenty of stupid people with no common sense and advanced degrees here too...
:)
Doug Selsam
I have solved the energy crisis.
Some of you may notice that soon.
http://www.superturbine.net
Douglas Selsam Selsam Innovations 2600 Porter Ave. Unit B Fullerton, CA 92833 Doug@Selsam.com http://www.selsam.com 714-992-5594


Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by whiskey (itswhiskey at_ g_mail do t com) on Mon Aug 9th, 2004 at 03:49:18 AM MST
(User Info)

Can anybody else smell something in here?

[ Parent ]


Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by TomW on Tue Dec 28th, 2004 at 08:36:37 AM MST
(User Info)

whiskey;

No comment on the Chinese thing but if I did have a comment I would be a bit less of a JERK stating it.

Anyway, if it looks like it smells like it and squishes when you step in it then thats likely what it is.

Yeah, Mister Doug is quite full of [examples follow]






"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Mon Aug 9th, 2004 at 08:53:19 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Yes...
"Don't these guys in China have any sort of engineering education or even common sense?
If this is really a top research organization over there, maybe they should leave the heavy lifting in the creativity department to western minds.
Then again I guess we have plenty of stupid people with no common sense and advanced degrees here too..."

Doug... in my opinion (no offense intended really..) it's bording on a racist sort of comment that I'm quite tempted to delete...
Folks all over the world are quite innovative.

It's easy to make a point w/o being quite so mean about it all.
A bit of a more humble attitude would in my opinion gain you a bit more respect here.  While I think your design is interesting and I applaud your efforts for exploring some new ideas, I think to claim you've solved the energy crisis is a bit over the top, and while interesting, I think your design is quite controversial in many folk's minds who have a pretty good idea about what's going on with wind turbine design.  

[ Parent ]



Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Dave B on Tue Aug 10th, 2004 at 12:00:52 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.madbbs.com/users/bruggelog

Dan,
  I would like to compliment you on your communication skills. Your consistant ability to make people think without argument indicates patience and a willingness to help. I appreciate your professionalism as it is a great contribution to this board. Doug understands what you are saying and like you I applaud his efforts. With the help of this board many others will I'm sure both respect his efforts and also understand the true meaning of his claims. Thanks for all of your help.  Dave B.

[ Parent ]


Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Thu Aug 12th, 2004 at 10:36:38 AM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

In principle I think that they can get
some more power out of it. As JF is telling
this concept is not new and it already
has been proved to be somewhat successful.

I have earlier written that there are some
other research papers indicating that
you might somehow utilize air currents
from the middle to the tips of the blades.

Betz limit is based on the idea that
the air goes straight through the turbine
and that idea is probably not valid.

An extract from my previous post
http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2004/4/26/93024/1936/13#13

************
From an article:

Alexander N. Gorban  
Professor and Deputy Director,
Institute of Computational Modeling,
Krasnoyarsk, Russia Assoc. Mem. ASME
Alexander M. Gorlov
Professor Emeritus,
Hydro-Pneumatic Power Laboratory
Northeastern University,
Boston, MA 02115
e-mail: amgorlov@coe.neu.edu Mem. ASME
Valentin M. Silantyev
Graduate Student,
Department of Mathematics,
Northeastern University,
Boston, MA 02115:

Limits of the Turbine Efficiency
for Free Fluid Flow

...

The most interesting finding
of our analysis is that
the maximum efficiency of
the plane propeller is
about 30 percent for free fluids.
This is in a sharp contrast
to the 60 percent given
by the Betz limit,
commonly used now for decades.
It is shown that the Betz
overestimate results
from neglecting the curvature
of the fluid streams.
We also show that
the three-dimensional
helical turbine is more efficient
than the two-dimensional propeller,
at least in water applications.
Moreover, well-documented
tests have shown that
the helical turbine
has an efficiency of 35 percent,
making it preferable
for use in free water currents.
@DOI: 10.1115/1.1414137#

...

The principal assumption of
the Betz model was that
the fluid flow remains rectilinear
when passing through the turbine
and maintains a uniform distribution
of the fluid pressure on the turbine.
Such a distributed load leads
to overestimating the forces
and torque applied to
the turbine and, as a result,
to overestimating the turbine's
power and its efficiency.
In reality, the fluid streams
are deflected from the rectilinear
direction near the barrier,
changing their motion to curvilinear
trajectories and reducing
their pressure on the turbine,
as can be seen in Fig. 1~b!:
By taking account of
the curvilinear trajectories
for the streams,
one obtains a more correct
turbine power and efficiency limit.

...

*********

I'm not sure, if it is the
best way to put the air going
through the blades.

I've been supporting the idea that
it might help if you'll make
the blades wider on the tips than
on the roots.
(Contrary to the common practice.)

But I hope that further research
will be done on this jet principle, too.

- Hannu




Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial)
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