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Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk


By ChrisW, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sun Aug 08, 2004 at 09:25:33 PM MST
There must be a way to do this...

I'm in the process of building a new, low-amp PMA (non-wind related) and after several days of looking for a suitable material for the magnet disk, that little voice in my head told me to go browse the Grainger catalog. As fate would have it, I found a 14" sheave (pulley) for a mere $20 (the catalog number is 1L847). Here's the catch: I want to orient the magnets axially, i.e., pole faces parallel to the shaft. In order to do this, I'd have to attach some kind of a ring made from wood, plastic, etc., 1/2" or 3/4" thick, to the perimeter of the sheave. So... I went nuts all afternoon trying to come up with a way to do this. I came up with two possibilities:

  1. Cast a one-piece ring using an appropriate casting resin (which sounds very messy and since I've never done it before, I'd probably be getting in way over my head, and

  2. Cut a ring from MDF, particle board or industrial plastic and attach it to the sheave.


The outer portion of the sheave is basically a V-groove and drilling through it radially is probably out of the question. The only method of attachment I can see is to drill very small holes through the side walls, drill matching holes through the thickness of the ring, and then basically "lace" it on with fine steel wire.

I thought about milling the inner portion of the ring to match the V-groove, but that presents two problems: 1) the ring would have to be cut in half (across the diameter) and then glued back together -- mechanically speaking, a disaster waiting to happen! and 2) cutting the matching profile would be exceedingly difficult.

Using the sheave eliminates a LOT of work and machining, i.e., making a hub, getting all the pieces square to the shaft, etc., but it also creates a real challenge in mounting the magnets (cylinder-shaped, 1" diameter, 3/4" long).

So...now that my brain has become a little puddle of goo, perhaps one of you will see an amazingly simple solution that eluded me all day...

-Chris-

Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Radomike on Mon Aug 09, 2004 at 01:47:19 AM MST

Hey Chris,
  That sounds like a good sized alt.
  The last pulleys I got in from Grainger were cast iron.  If yours is, you should be able to drill blind holes in the center of the v and tap them for machine screws.  These would hold individual plates that extend over the edge of one side--where the magnet attaches.
  I'd use locktite so I'm not tempted to overtighten into the casting.
  Bondo would maybe be enough to keep such plates from turning if only one screw was used in each plate--unless you expect high RPMs--then reinforce everything.

  I like your approach, since all of your magnet is at the greatest circumference it seem to me you get more work out of your neos, at least you can fit more.
  I hope any of this helps at all.
Mike




Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by wooferhound on Mon Aug 09, 2004 at 06:04:59 AM MST

pic of the sheave


it looks like you could just bolt a plate of steel right on to the side of 1 or 2 of these. You will want a good thick piece of steel behind the magnets anyway.

)}=- W o o f -={(



Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by systemtwo on Mon Aug 09, 2004 at 08:19:24 AM MST

Chris
I think the best way to achieve what you require is to use the old way of fixing a steel band to a wooden wagon wheel that is shrink fit it.
get a strip of steel the width you require and cut off a piece 1/4 millimeter shorter than the circumference of your pulley weld this together to form a circle clean up the weld.
put the pulley in the fridge put steel band in the fire until red hot (not white) in a safe place drop the band over the wheel as quickly as you can and when in correct position throw water (buckets full) over Assembly. I may be able to describe this better if you chose to try it.

David



Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ChrisW on Mon Aug 09, 2004 at 03:59:10 PM MST

Tim, thanks for the pic!

I'm familiar with the heat and freeze technique, but it won't work in this case because the sheave is made out of cast aluminum -- or aluminium for our friends in the UK. ;)

Woof, getting a piece of steel behind the magnets won't be possible since the poles are going to be in the same plane as the disk/ring itself. I've done some testing on one coil, 600 turns of #26 wire and I can get about 12.5 volts at roughly .75 amps just cranking it by hand. With 36 coils (18 on each side of the disk), it'll more than meet my needs for this project.

Mike, I thought about using individual plates -- still am, actually -- my only concern is that a magnet will undoubtedly want to be in a space occupied by one of the spokes, and that, as they say, is a "sticky wicket."

I took a look at an 8" sheave made by the same manufacturer (Congress) and it turns out there is a narrow flat spot at the bottom of the V-groove, and I can probably manage to get a long, skinny screw or brad into it. What I might be able to do is first drill a series of holes around the perimeter, then "pin" the ring to it via some kind of fastener through those holes.

Another thought I had today is to get some of that red rubber gasket material in the form of a strip, its length being that of the sheave's circumference. The ring's inner circumference would be just a hair larger than the sheave's, and in this way I could achieve a press fit; it would allow me to get the ring positioned so that it spins true, and then fasten it using the technique mentioned above and/or with a generous amount of adhesive, probably urethane glue. (Whew, now that's what I call a run-on sentence!)

I'm still open to suggestions. I still think this method will work out better than having to drag out the router, cut a circle, make a hub, yadda-yadda-yadda.

-Chris-




Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by wooferhound on Mon Aug 09, 2004 at 08:16:37 PM MST

If you are using #26 gage wire, your voltage will evaporate as soon as you try to use your power. What is the resistance of one coil ?

)}=- W o o f -={(



Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by windrules on Mon Aug 09, 2004 at 09:55:13 PM MST

If I have the orientation right why not use a car brake drum an put magnets on the outside ,could be much easier.
Regards,
Mos



Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Firefly on Tue Aug 10, 2004 at 04:40:57 PM MST

Use a big sprocket for a roller chain instead.



Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Firefly on Tue Aug 10, 2004 at 04:47:44 PM MST

Maybe these photos will give you some ideas.




















Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by ChrisW on Tue Aug 10, 2004 at 05:21:09 PM MST

Firefly -- that's AWESOME! Geez, those pictures bring up a zillion questions, but that's definitely a nice piece of work. What are those little flappy-looking things on the spokes? Are those for cooling, balancing or something else? And what's the diameter of the ring? Looks like a 1" shaft. Did you inject some fine oil into those pillow blocks? I've used those before and grease is a no-no unless you've got some serious power driving the shaft. Also, are those tapered bushings on the sheave? Enough questions for now but again, great job!

Progress: I ordered the 14" sheave from Grainger last night so it'll be here in a few days. Also decided to go with fine grain particle board for my ring since I'm more of a woodworker than a metalworker. I think the idea of a press fit will work out; there'll be just enough room to make the necessary adjustments so that it runs true.

Tim, I know from your previous posts that you're into this sorta thing so I'll just say this much and I know you'll understand: I don't intend to kill the dipole. I've already done a great deal of preliminary testing and I'm amazed by the results. When it's all said and done, I'll post everything here. In the meantime, if you want to chat about it via email, drop me a note at gspirit at trailnet dot com.

Mos, as for the brakedrum, I did one of those a while back -- quite an awesome beast but waaaay too much weight for this particular application.

Thanks so much for all the feedback!

-Chris-




Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Firefly on Tue Aug 10, 2004 at 08:32:16 PM MST

Chris,
The fappies are for cooling, works good. The disk OD is 12". The shaft is a 1"D. This is a test stand with a 3hp drive motor on it so grease drag in the bearings is not an issue. Yes on the taper bushings. The final wind machine will have tapered roller bearings in oil, a 1-1/8" shaft. I have yet to do the testing on the output of the unit. I used small roll pins to keep the magnets from flying off, they are also epoxied. By the way, a wooden disk will not work for you. The disk should be mild steel for best results.The magnets came from windstuff.com, 16 per disk.

Firefly

[ Parent ]


Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by nack on Tue Aug 10, 2004 at 05:46:44 PM MST

This one really wants pictures, but I have no decent graphics software, so I will try to explain clearly...

Cut some tabs from a length on angle iron (1x1 or 1.5x1.5 1/4" thick), next drill 2 holes on one side large enough for screws to attach to the disk.  on the other face, drill a single hole to be tapped for 5/16 or 3/8 NF thread.  Locate this hole a little less than half the v-groove's width from the inside corner of the angle.  Get 1 bolt and one lock-nut for each angle iron tab.  Install a nut on each bolt, as far as the theaded length allows, then grind a hemisphere onto the end of the bolt (or use bolts with a "dog-point" already machined on them).  Now run the nut over the ground area a few times to clean the threads, then insert the nut into the angle iron tab from the outside of the angle (so the dog-point is on the inside of the angle).  Attach a few of these to the ring's back (sheave) side with equidistant spacing.  Locate them so that the corner in the angle iron overhangs the edge of the ring by just a little bit and the bolt/locknut is not aimed at the disk, but at the sheave.  You should now have a clamp on ring that can be attached to the sheave by way of the clamping bolts seating into the v-groove.  Radial run-out can be adjusted by loosening a bolt and tightening the one (or ones) opposite from it.  Adjustment is easiest if you just use 3 bolts until runout is perfect, then seat any other bolts that you may have included for extra strength.  Make sure to tighten the locknuts.  If the machining of the angle iron puts the bolt hole's centerline a little bit short of the v-grooves centerline, there should be no axial runout, as the bolts will pull the ring tight to the side of the sheave - if there is axial runout it is either built in to the sheave, or something wasn't drilled right, or the runout is present in the ring, no matter how you mount it, or the ring is floppy material, and the bolt tension distorted it - in this case see if you can back off the bolts a little bit without getting any slipping.  

Think of it basically like a spoked wheel where the spokes push against the hub, instead of the spokes pulling against the rim.

My guess is that 6 tabs should hold your wheel together against any reasonable torque load, but obviously you will have to decide what is right for your project.



Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by nack on Tue Aug 10, 2004 at 05:53:08 PM MST

Alternately, if the mechanical stresses aren't too great, and the rotation not too fast, you could attach sheetmetal tabs to the ring, fold them into the v-groove, then put a section of belt (cut to length that leaves about a 1/2" gap between ends when installed in sheave) over them and top it off with a big hose clamp.  Not as adjustable, not as strong, but cheap and easy.

[ Parent ]


Re: Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by ChrisW on Tue Aug 10, 2004 at 09:30:56 PM MST

Firefly -- I'm not sure those roll pins will hold up under the centrifugal forces, vibration and weather, even if they're epoxied in place -- but time will certainly tell. I'll be interested to know how she performs when you get 'er flyin'.

Also -- in this particular project (non-wind), the metal backing for the magnets would only get in the way. I may end up using something akin to laminations on the coils if I can find a suitable material. Silicon steel seems to be quite difficult to find, not to mention that it's pretty pricey even on the surplus market.

Nack -- that's an interesting approach. If I end up building another one of these I'll probably go that route or something very similar. In this particular case, I'll be taking advantage of both sides of the magnets, i.e., coils on both sides of the sheave, so what I really need is a ring that fits over the sheave; the magnets will go completely through the thickness of the ring.

-Chris-




Using a Sheave as a Magnet Disk | 13 comments (13 topical)
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