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Turbocharger generator?


By zmoz, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 01:03:39 AM MST
Could the output of a turbocharger be used to turn a generator?

I think I'm going to get a small diesel engine to generate power and heat for my house from biodiesel. I was just thinking...would it be possible to increase the efficiency using a turbocharger to turn a generator? I mean, the turbo would be put into the exhaust as usual, and then somehow hook up a generator to the turbo, rather than the air compressor part? I don't know too much about turbos, but all the energy in the exhaust is waste. Would the decrease in performance be more than the amount of electricity you could get doing this?

I don't know...maybe I shouldn't come up with ideas like this after I've been drinking all night...:)

Turbocharger generator? | 7 comments (7 topical)

Re: Turbocharger generator? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:18:33 AM MST

I was just thinking...would it be possible to increase the efficiency using a turbocharger to turn a generator? I mean, the turbo would be put into the exhaust as usual, and then somehow hook up a generator to the turbo, rather than the air compressor part? I don't know too much about turbos, but all the energy in the exhaust is waste.

The heat in the exhaust is waste.  The pressure is not.  Putting a load on the turbo would increase the backpressure in the exhaust system.  So the power you pull from the turbo comes straight out of the shaft horsepower.

The power the turbo pulls from the exhaust to run the compressor also comes out of shaft horsepower.  But the compressor gives it back by increasing the intake pressure.  Gain occurs because it gives you a higher effective compression ratio, so you use the fuel heat at a higher temperature for greater efficiency, more than making up for losses in the turbo.

But the main advantage of a turbo is that an atmosphere or so of pressure boost effectively doubles the size of your engine by increasing the cylinder charge, at negligible increase in weight.  This isn't particularly significant in stationary applications, where weight isn't an issue and wear is.  (A stationary engine can get the same effect by having a higher compression ratio in the first place.)  But it's major in vehicular applications, where boost is used for accelleration rather than cruising.  (A vehicle engine has to haul itself around in addition to the payload, so doubling the power to weight ratio means a lighter engine for a given application.  That turns into either more payload or less fuel consumption.)

Which is not to say that turbos aren't used in stationary engines.  There's engineering and plant-construction costs to recycle by reusing the heavily-debugged vehicular technology rather then designing a low-volume product and its manufacturing plants from scratch.



Re: Turbocharger generator? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by zmoz on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 01:08:20 PM MST

"The heat in the exhaust is waste.  The pressure is not.  Putting a load on the turbo would increase the backpressure in the exhaust system.  So the power you pull from the turbo comes straight out of the shaft horsepower."

Yes, I know that. The question is, is the loss in power more than you could get if you just attached the generator to the shaft? I mean, maybe the turbo only takes away 1hp from the engine, but can give out 2hp worth of electric generation, thus, increasing the efficiency of the engine.

[ Parent ]



Re: Turbocharger generator? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 01:37:06 AM MST

At first I thought it would be just a net transfer.  But then I followed up on bobn's postings and looked at the search results on turbocompounds.  One of the papers there had the answer.  (Not explicitly called out, but implied.)

With a turbocharger, the power produced by the turbine (stolen from the crankshaft via backpressure) goes up faster than the power required by the compressor.  At idle there just isn't enough to drive the compressor, so the whole business is bypassed (by opening the waste gate and letting the turbine just sit there).

When the engine gets up to the crossover point, where the turbine can produce enough to drive the compressor, the waste gate is closed and the turbine spools up.  But as the engine speeds up further, there's surplus power to be had from the turbine, to the point that, at the top end, the turbine may be making twice as much power as the compressor needs.  The waste gate is opened again to let some of the gasses bypass the system to keep from raising the pressure too far and blowing up the engine.  Power is wasted by the gasses flowing across a pressure difference without doing work.  But you could as easily get the power back by taking it off a different way and do something useful with it.

One option is to put a second turbine after the first.  The backpressure from the second one steals the power from the first turbine, rather than from the crankshaft.  One of the turbocompound designs does this, and puts the power from the second turbine back into the crankshaft by a string of reduction gears, a fluid coupling, a gear to the camshaft, and from there through the timing gears to the crank.  (But you could just use a genny and pull it out as juice.)

Another is to put a genny on the same shaft as the turbo and compressor, pulling the extra power out right there as juice.  (Then you can run a motor to put it back in the crank, or do whatever else you want with it.)

[ Parent ]



Re: Turbocharger generator? (4.00 / 1) (#6)
by bob g on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 01:24:13 AM MST

you are correct that alot of power goes up the exhaust, on a typical diesel engine approx 1/3 goes out the output shaft, 1/3 out the exhaust and the final third out the radiator.

while in theory you can pull the power off the turbo shaft, you will not lose an equal amount of crankshaft power, you will lose some to pumping force but not that much. There are many factors in what drives a turbo, cam profiles, pulse manifolds, heat retention,  etc..... but mainly it is the heat that drives it, not the pumping from the pistons.

in practice the connection of the turbo output shaft as stated runs from 30,000 to well over 100,000 rpm, the transmission needed to get this down to a useable rpm would be enormous and very difficult to manufacture and maintain. Also it might be worth noting that the smaller turbo's you are likely to encounter for smaller engines will work upwards of 125,000 rpm.

as for connecting magnets to the turbo shaft and mounting coils to form a small high speed alternator, nix that idea before you start, at 100,000 rpm rest assured that your  magnets will have exploded into deadly projectiles (worse case) or certainly be digested into the intake manifold, valves then cylinders of your engine (best case)

also one should consider what a turbo actually does, that is it allows an engine to make more power by pumping more air into the cylinders, allowing the ability to burn more fuel.  without the added fuel there would be no more power and likely engine destruction due to lean burn conditions.

from a seriously practical standpoint there simply is not simple way of doing what you are proposing.

be careful when working with turbo's ,,, they like to eat fingers :( , and consume alot of money if set up wrong.

bob g



Re: Turbocharger generator? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by thunderhead on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 01:23:39 AM MST

The turbocharger-jet-engine mob seem to have done some work on this, and the problem seems to be with the high RPM.  The turbocharger runs at about 30,000RPM - 100,000RPM, depending on how the engine is running.

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/turbine4.htm

This is also the man who got busted by the NZ government for putting plans for a homebrew cruise missile on his website.  Something about anti-terrorism, I believe.

I got to thinking about mounting a single disc magnet on the end of the inlet shaft.  You'd have to make sure it was balanced, but with three wraparound coils and some rectifiers close to them, it ought to be possible to draw off some electricity.

I'm not sure it would help you, though, since anything that retards the turbo either reduces the boost pressure or creates backpressure on the exhaust, both of which will lower the efficiency of the engine.  But you could recover waste heat by circulating the exhaust through pipes in your heat store.

I was interested in it as a design to extract work from thermal solar panels, by circulating air through them and placing them between inlet and exhaust of a turbocharger.  If these turbocharger-jet-engine designs work, by heating the air with combustion, a design that heats the air with sunshine should also work.  It should also be much cheaper than PV panels.  But this is way down my list: I have an EV to build first!



Re: Turbocharger generator? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by TomW on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:48:36 AM MST

zmoz;

Heh if it would work maybe it would help boost the power you can resell from this plan you have:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/9/9/31217/10092

T

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it




Re: Turbocharger generator? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by bobn on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:37:21 AM MST

I think what you want is called "turbocompound" and it is a viable method of extracting more power from an engine by means of an exhaust driven power recover turbine,  commonly used on some of the last of the big aircraft engines. sandia labs has some reserch with diesel stationary powerplants.  do a yahoo or google serch for turbocompound  you will get all the information you need.
Bobn



Turbocharger generator? | 7 comments (7 topical)
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