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The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha


By troy, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 01:02:45 PM MST
Never thought I'd have this problem...

Let me be clear about this, I am absolutely commited to energy conservation.  Energy conservation will play a fundamental role in the decades to come as fossil fuels become scarce/expensive.

I now have a functional cogenerator that produces both heat and electricity from biodiesel.  Wooohooooo!

I have cut my monthly electricity consumption from 600+ kwh/mo to less than 200 kwh/mo. But here's the problem. I now use so "little" electricity, that I don't have to run the cogen setup for very long, and I barely make enough hot water for showers and laundry.

I find myself in the curious position of looking for ways to use more electricity so I can make enough hot water to keep the wife happy.  We're buying a deep freeze today to get that usage up.

This feels all wrong.  But if it's renewable energy, it's only waste if you don't use it...

Have a great day!

troy

The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 01:12:02 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Thats nice Troy - good to see you have that running!

Are you running it on veggi oil or something?

I've not experimented with fuel yet... it seems pretty economical on diesel though.  Im not reclaiming any heat either (I'm waiting for a nice old floor radiator to come my way).  But it's been great for power back up and has plenty of power to run whatever I need.  I don't think my FuKing has ever even missed a beat (except when its cold right after it starts).  It's broken in some now and has noticably more power than it did when it was new.

We've been down around 30 deg last couple mornings, (mine is outside) and it starts OK after a few cranks.  Above about 45 deg it always starts on the first crank.

Wonderful things...



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by troy on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 03:58:44 PM MST
(User Info)

Runs on biodiesel.  

A.  I didn't want to mess with filtering viscous veggie oil and heating it to 175F just to get it to go through the fuel injection pump without damage. They use indirect injection and a mechanical pump, so maybe you wouldn't have to pre-heat, but I doubt it.

B.  I am getting set up to make mass quantities of B-100 to run my VW diesel Passat wagon anyway, so may as well run the gennie on that as well.  No heating, no muss, no fuss, regular goldenrod fuel filter.

Have a lovely day,

troy

[ Parent ]



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Wolvenar on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 12:17:26 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/albums.php

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/WaterPreheater

Would a setup like this be better at claiming heat from the exhaust? looks as though it only passes through the center pipe in the pic then out, this setup add a lot more surface area to capture heat. I would add some fiberglass insulation around the exausts pipe out of the engine to tank. I would also definently insulate the tank

Also some sort of solar batch heater outside in the summer time may be of help.

Just my opion
Wolv

http://www.anotherpower.com
irc.anotherpower.com
[ Parent ]



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Old F on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 04:05:28 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.oldf.homestead.com

Troy

How fast can you heat a tank of water and to what temp?

Old F



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by drdongle (Dr.Dongle1@juno.com) on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 05:13:06 PM MST
(User Info)

Could you explane what were looking at in your photo?

Carpe Vigor

Dr.D
Carpe Vigor, Dr.D



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by 12volt dan (dan12v@hotmail.com) on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 05:13:29 PM MST
(User Info)

And what are you using for a heat exchanger?
11 years off the grid and counting


Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by sh123469 (sh123469 at yahoo dot com) on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 05:22:52 PM MST
(User Info)

Good looking setup there :)

How about an electric element in the water heater as well as heat recovery from the engine?  I know that electric heating is not the most conservative way to heat your water.  But with the combination, it shouldn't take all that long to heat the water and then you would always have hot water for the wife.

Did you setup to do any heat recovery from the exhaust of the engine as well as the coolant?  You might get lots more heated water in that situation.  I don't know for sure how practical it would be in your situation though.

I have seen some people saying that they were going to do exhaust heat recovery but don't know how well it worked out for them.



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by JW on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 07:31:40 PM MST
(User Info)

For an engine this small, exhaust stream heat reclaimation, thru the use of a heat exchanger, may not be justified. Although would most likely be more practical on a 4cyl engine. Theres also the water condensation problem to manage. Also these single cylinder engines do not have an elaborate valve train. Such valvetrains(on a four cyl) often need to be warmed up to operate without ecesive wear. But these small engines can operate at cool temperatures without adverse wear problems on there valve train. How do I know this? I was a ASE master tech for 10 years.

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by ghurd on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 06:06:10 PM MST
(User Info)

I like the design, the parts I understand of it.

How about some insulation on the tank?
(that is the holding tank, right?)

I agree with sh123. Adding a electric element would solve both problems, add some electrons when adding some btu's. A low wattage element would at least keep it warmer. Don't underestimate what 25 watts will do for an INSULATED tank.



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by nobicus on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 12:29:10 AM MST
(User Info)

You lot in America are so lucky 'cos you can buy 12 volt immersion heaters.  And, more importantly you can get the tap to create the 1 inch thread needed for about $40.  I asked a supplier in England about a a thread cutting tap and he quoted me the equivilant of $334:25!!  It might almost be cheaper to get a cheap flight and come and get one myself.!!
Can you not create a solar collector to preheat the water before it gets to the tank?



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by ghurd on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 09:03:35 AM MST
(User Info)

Have you looked into what would happen to a 120 or 240vac element?

Off the top of my head, ohms law stuff, 12vdc into a 240vac element, would give 5% power. A 240vac 1500w element would use 75w at 12vdc. 2000 would be 100w.

I don't know if this would actually work. It would be interesting to try. A little scrounging could get a used element for free. Add a battery and a bucket of water...

[ Parent ]



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Victor on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 10:20:48 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi ghurd,

 The power in a resistor varies with the square of the voltage so a 2000 watt 240 volt element  supplied with 12 volts will deliver 1/400 of the watts or 5 watts.

  E=IR        P=IE          so   P= I^2 R       and P= E^2 / R

Victor

[ Parent ]



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by ghurd on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 09:44:40 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Victor

Dang. I know that!

I don't know what the heck I was thinking.  I'm glad you noticed it before someone bought parts to try it.

I know I was thinking about DC into the AC element. If it was some kind of wire wound induction element (DC problem?), or pure resistive. I changed a couple 20 years ago. Can't even remember what they looked like.

[ Parent ]



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 01:07:23 AM MST
(User Info)


Hi Troy. Very nice setup.. I have a silly question.. When looking at this image it looks like it's in a basement or something.. by the looks of the picture I can see a muffler, where are the exhaust gases going? is the muffler going outside? can you explain the pic a little so we know what we are looking at?
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!


Further details (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by troy on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 09:44:45 AM MST
(User Info)

Dear group,

What you see in the picture is the Lister diesel engine and the heat exchanger for the coolant. This preheats my domestic hot water. It's a converted 40 gal gas water heater.  I welded a plate in both ends of the flue after grinding off the glass lining, and welded a pipe fitting into the plate. No-tox/low-tox antifreeze (propylene glycol) fills what was previously the flue.  The coolant side holds three gallons of 50/50 antifreeze/distilled water.

Since this effectively functions as the radiator, I can't have any insulation on it. There is no water pump, and the system operates on thermosyphon.  That means absolutely no leaks or air pockets, or it breaks the syphon and it overheats.  But, no water pump to fail either, so take your choice.

What is not visible in the picture is the heat exchanger for the exhaust.  The exhaust pipe is insulated with fiberglass, though I do plan to add more insulation once I have all the bugs sorted out.  That heat exchanger is also a converted gas water heater with plates welded in to accept regular exhaust pipe.  After the heat exchanger it goes through a cheap car muffler and then out the basement window.  Noise outside is minimal.  Noise inside comes primarly from the injection pump and cam/valve train noise.  Again, once everything is sorted out, I will make a little sound proof room to make it civilized.

It takes 3 hours to heat the tanks up (80 gallons total) to make enough hot water for a regular day.  I think that will be more like two hours once we get enough electrical load to push the Lister a little harder.  The coolant heat exchanger heats up a little faster than the exhaust heat exchanger.  But the exhaust heat exchanger still has all the original insulation just like a "normal" water heater, so it retains the heat a lot better overnight.  I do have a long term concern about soot build up in the exhaust heat exchanger reducing efficiency.  We'll see.  And it has a condensate drain that gravity drains into my main plumbing stack.

It's been a fun experiment.  I did have some problems with head gaskets.  Some cheapie supplier substituted copper plated aluminum composite head gaskets.  When the gasket fails, the cooling system becomes highly pressurized and leaks develop.  I also blew a radiator hose out as well.  I have a couple of proper copper composite head gaskets on the way, so that should fix that up.

I will post a better overal photo of the whole system sometime in the next couple of days.

Good luck and have fun,

troy



Re: Further details (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sat Sep 25th, 2004 at 09:35:28 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Hi Troy - interesting to hear about your head gasket troubles...

Is it a closed system then?(pressurized)  What sort of temp does the engine run at?

I've got mine with the cooling tank open at the top so there's no pressure building up in the cooling system.  Perhaps I wouldn't even notice if I did have a small head gasket leak...  although I do look at the oil everytime I run it to make sure water's not leaking into it.

When I first started running mine, I was leaking a bit of coolant at the bottom of the cylender... but the head bolts were not tightened properly - i tightened them up and it went away.  I check those frequently too...

[ Parent ]



Re: Further details (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by troy on Sat Sep 25th, 2004 at 10:45:35 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Dan,

It is a pressurized system and it runs around 190F producing 1500 watts.  I may consider an open system just to put less stress on the hoses, gaskets, etc.  We'll see.

Best,

troy

[ Parent ]



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by juiced on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 10:46:41 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.juiced.ca

A couple usefull item you could add:

  Central Vacum unit
  Internal Wall circulation
   Sun Tracker
   Off-Grid Hosting (A personal favorite, anybody wishing to enter a venture involving this may contact me at juicy@juiced.ca)
   Wheat Mill
   etc...

   Just find something that will improve your life and add it in, should help you out. I think..?

Canada's -Debatable- A.E./R.E Debate Site
News, discussions and debates!
www.juiced.ca



Re: The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by troy on Fri Sep 24th, 2004 at 11:06:25 AM MST
(User Info)

I neglected to mention that I live in South Bend, Indiana.  We get some sun in the middle of the summer, but fall/spring/winter is terrible for insolation levels, aka cloudy all the time.  So solar boost heating is out three seasons of the year.  I do have yet another water tank up in the attic that I may hook up as a passive pre-heater in the summer, so that would help, but I still have three seasons to worry about.

All the best,

troy



The disadvantages of conservation, ha ha | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial)
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