Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
Sunfrost Headaches


By devoncloud, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Fri Sep 24, 2004 at 10:32:29 PM MST
OK, so I have a 12 volt system, and a new sunfrost fridge I want to add to my system

Well, When I first got into this stuff, I knew nothing about anything concerning making my own electricity and I have been learning as I go.  I thought that going with a 12 volt sytem was the most cost efficient way to go, since there was plenty of lights available for cheap at 12 volt, and most equipment such as radios, flash lights and scanners that I could purchase was 12 volt anyway etc.....

So, I purchased the air industrial (12 volt), I have an air x (that (I am going to have fun hitting with a sledge hammer, because it has given me nothing but problems)and some older solar panels (12 volt) and one newer one (17 volt).  I have 4 trojan batteries that I have wired up for 12 volt charging and I have a charge controller that can charge 12, 24 or 48 volt.
OK... so now, enter the Sunfrost fridgerator and freezer.  Inside the controler box for this thing, they have built in a cutoff switch that will cut the refridgerator off at 7.6 volts and will not turn the fridge on again until 11V.  

The problem I am having is that I cannot get this thing to run long enough with my 12 volt system unless I am basically fully charged, which isnt happening for me because I am not producing this much power.  Has anyone ran into this problem?  

Am I going to have to start over again and charge 24 or 48 volt to get this thing running correctly?  

Can I solve this problem by adding another 12 volt wind generator to keep my batteries full or will I need to stop what I am doing with this system and start working on a 24 volt?  

This is going to mean that I have to purchase new wind generators (or build some which I am doing right now anyway, but my design is also set up for 12 v, so I will have to change it a little) unless there is a way to change my air industrial to a 24 volt system, but I do not think that this is possible, at least I have found no documentation on how to do this.

Does anyone have any suggestions?
Devon

Sunfrost Headaches | 14 comments (14 topical)

Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Fri Sep 24, 2004 at 11:14:08 PM MST

Is the 'fridge 12 volt only? Dumb question, but I've never actually seen one.

Could add a grid charger. Kind of misses the whole point, but a quick fix to keep from ruining the batteries.  7.6v many times will ruin them.

G-



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by devoncloud on Fri Sep 24, 2004 at 11:18:02 PM MST

the fridge is 12 volt or 24 volt, your choice
Devon

[ Parent ]


Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by ghurd on Fri Sep 24, 2004 at 11:55:25 PM MST

Will it use less watts on 24v than 12v?  More efficient somehow?

Will changing from the same 12v design to 24v on a windmill gain anything?
I don't get much of the wind stuff yet, but for solar, watts is watts is watts.
My solar thinking would be more watts. and more battery.

G-


[ Parent ]



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by devoncloud on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 02:01:09 AM MST

I agree watts is watts is watts even in windpower, however, if the sunfrost kicks itself off after the batteries discharge to 9volts (or seven, I forget which one it is)and will only kick back on after reaching 11 volts, would it not be easier to simply be running a 24 volt system?  I mean it seems to me that if I am running a 24 volt system it will give me much more room to play with concerning the shutoff voltage, so it will be on longer. At least that is what I am thinking, if I am wrong about that and someone knows why let me know.

I understand that I need more batteries and more solar and wind power (this will come in time when I have the money to increase what I got)but I guess I am at a crossroads here.... Should I continue on with my 12 volt system and increase the amount of power I am adding to the system or should I begin working on a 24 volt system that can run the fridge?

I guess I could run both 12 volt (for lights and radio n stuff) and then either make or buy a wind generator and a solar panel that can charge at 24 volts, maybe that is the way to go....

I guess my question should be how many of you out there have these sunfrost fridges and are running them on 12 volts?  Do you have problems with them getting cut off?  If you did have problems, how did you solve your problem?
Devon

[ Parent ]



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by devoncloud on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 02:22:47 AM MST

After reading that I confused myself, so anyone reading that sorry if I confused you as well... let me try again.

I have a 12 volt system (meaning I have batteries set up to accept a 12 volt charge) and the sunfrost fridge is wired up to cut itself off when the battery is discharged to 9 volts.  This only gives me three volts to discharge if I start out with a full charge.  

Am I correct in thinking that if I had my batteries set up to accept a 24 volt charge, that my sunfrost fridge would stay on longer?  this would give me 15 volts worth of discharge before the fridge cut itself off, right?

So, if that is right, it seems I should move to a 24 volt battery system, since it will allow me to keep the fridge running.  Or, I could spend more money on my 12 volt system in order to insure my charge never drops below 9 volts by buying or making more wind/solar power and buying more battery storage.  I am not sure which one of these is a better idea.  

Hope that clarified a little better.  
Devon

[ Parent ]



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by ghurd on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 02:22:58 AM MST

Watt-hours is watt-hours is watt-hours.
If you flip the switch to 24v, you probably double the cut-off volts too. I can't imagine a 24v system having a cut-off at 7 or 9v.

Most bigger systems usually go to 24 or 48v. Sounds like you are getting to 'bigger'. Gains some inverter efficiency and lowers wire cost.

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 05:07:47 AM MST

Ghurd is probably right, going to 24v will likely raise the cut out voltage.

Basically your  problem is simply that you do not have enough power to run a fridge.

The cut off at 9v is too low for any sensible battery life, 10.5 is about as low as you ought to go if the batteries are going to have any chance of  surviving, and that's on the low side.

As you have settled on a 12v system there seems little sense in changing it for the fridge, it will take the same power on 24v. What you gain in reduced current on the fridge will be offset by the reduced charging current from a 24v wind generator.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by kurt on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 08:43:54 AM MST

hmmm first off i think this is exactly why if you were to get the dans and all there nabors in a room and ask them what kind of refrigerator is most economical for off grid living they would all say propane PROPANE! PROPANE!!! like some strange RE musical sung to the beat of a washtub bass and........... OK my imagination is running wild here but you get the point.

to run your sunfrost first dig out the specs on it find out how many watt hours per day it draws and then size your battery bank 6x that size (3 days of running with no charging without discharging the batts below 50% capacity) + your other loads like lighting ect. off the top of my head i am thinking 10 t105's or 8 L16's would about do it.

take the watts/hours per day the sunfrost uses and add to it your dayly watt hour usage for other stuff. now multiply that number by 3  that is how many watts of solar your gonad need + a good wind Gen for low sun days.

next your gonna need a backup Gen for low sun/wind days preferably one with auto start hooked up to one of them controllers that turns the Gen set on when batteries get below 80% charge and turns it off when batts are charged. (otherwise at some point you are going to over discharge your batteries the fridge is gonna shut off and your food is gonna rot.


IRC inst.
just a personal rant carry on.



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by whatsnext on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 10:17:51 AM MST

Just to add to Kurt's post. The smallest Sunfrost uses .14kWa/day. The biggest uses 1.02. Pretty impressive really as the biggest is a 19 cu/ft ref/frez. It did not look, to me, like you can switch between 12 and 24 volt so don't try it until you know FOR SURE. So you might be stuck with the 12VDC plan you started with. That just means you need more baterries and more solar to rub you new fridge. You will probably need more 'serious' batteries than your Trojans which is OK because you can use the Trojans and your current system to run other things like music and lights. Sunfrost's site goes over, quite clearly, what you need to power them.
John........

[ Parent ]


Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by John II on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 08:00:54 PM MST

Hi Deveoncloud: you said.

"I guess my question should be how many of you out there have these sunfrost fridges and are running them on 12 volts?"

We own two SunFrost units. One is a 12 cf frig/freezer and the other a 4 cf frige/freezer. We stated out with the small one, then later went to the larger one moving the smaller unit out to a guest cabin. Both of them are 12v.

These things draw very little power, but my guess is one of three items if not all of them may be your problem.

(1) You are not providing your batteries enough power to run your SunFrost.

(2) You do not have a large enough battery bank, you need more batteries.

(3) Your battery bank is pretty well shot and needs replaced.

From past experiences with our own system, it's a guess that it could be all of the above. Also too small of wire, or corroded connections can cause your Frig to see lower voltages than normal, something to definately check out as well.

We finally out grew our 12v system. Our 12v PV array produces 90 amps at 12 volts ( about 1000 watts) on a sunny day ! So we have a lot of copper 0000 size cable (size of garden hose), and even 2ga welding cable routes around the house in specially designed accessible conducts !

I like you, started out with modest loads, but as the size of the system grew things got out of hand. If your frig will run on 12 or 24vdc you have the latest, the earlier ones like ours will not convert up to run on 24vdc without replacing the entire compressor.

Somebody jump in and correct me here, but if I recall, just jumping from 12v to 24v will allow you to run 4 times smaller wire sizes etc.

After dealing with copper cable almost the size of garden hose, we decided to keep this 12v system, but we decided our next system would be a higher voltage. I opted for 120vdc because a lot of brush motors (shop tools) would run directly off of it w/o an inverter. 120vdc is lethal voltages and being dc makes it even more so. you can strike a arc with it and hold the arc to about a space of one inch or so! I quickly found that unless your shop tool is rated as ac/dc you fry the switch the first time you try to use it!

What I didn't think about, is that 120v inverters are only available as commercial units, and not considered to be sold to your average consumer, So they are priced out of sight ($6,000 to $7,000 ) for starters ! I'll never be able to afford one, and if I did, probably not be able to afford to have it serviced if it would quite working !

So there are draw backs as well as advantages to higher voltages. Depending on how large of a system you have in the future, 24v and 48 volts are nice modest options.

The problem is, once you start a system, you tend to purchase so many devices that will only run on those voltages, that you end up with such a large investment in all the appliances, lights etc. That you can't afford to upgrade to a higher voltage system. you are very fortunate that you have a frig that will let you bump up to 24v just in case your system should outgrow your expectations.

John II



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Harry Luubovv on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 09:05:35 PM MST

Ok Devon,

If the fridge is designed to have the power cut off at 9V for 12V application, it will cut off at 22V for 24V application. Please refer to the instruction of the fridge to verify, if you still have the instruction.

It is better to use 24V than 12V definitely, especially if you have some length to the wires between batteries and appliances. Now as you are building new generators, go for 24V definitely, NOT 12V anymore Devon ! The remaining 12V bought windgen you have, you can still retain it to use in a separate circuit to run some simple lights and others, this will give you redundant powers, that is, if you had to turn off the main 24V system for whatever adjustment or maintenance, you can still have the 12V system to run lights to shine your way through the work procedure.

As for 12V appliances being readily available and at lower costs, I totally agree with you, a 24V appliance can sometimes run you twice or more times the money to get than the equivalent 12V versions.

As for Sunfrost, they are money shamefully put to good waste !

Nowadays, we can buy fridges with efficiency equal to the Sunfrost type with a much lower cost involved. For example, we have Daewoo and a few models especially in the 9 to 12 cubic range of the Danby that are only inches away from the efficiency of the Sunfrost, but in practice, you don't even notice the differences between them.

I will continue to read up on your post and may answer further if necessary.

Good luck mate,
Harry.

[ Parent ]



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Harry Luubovv on Sat Sep 25, 2004 at 09:11:55 PM MST

I am sorry Devon, I was hasty in answering to you on my first post.
I meant to say that, if the fridge is designed to cut off at 9V under 12V power condition, it will cut off at 18V under 24V condition. Turning back on will be at 22V for 24V condition. Sorry.

Okay mate,
Harry.

[ Parent ]



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by ghurd on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 01:20:31 PM MST

I like propane too. Not that I have much experience with it.

We fly-in fish in Canada. Propane 'fridge, 40 gallon water heater, lighting, and stove. Supplied from a 100# tank (I think. About 5' hi, 16" dia.). Most years, they are partly used when we get there, and we don't have to change tanks for the week.
Amazing to me how much you get from a pound of propane.

These refridgerators work well. Even tho they look like they are from the '50s, bad/missing seals, low/no maintaince done, etc. The new ones would have to be better.



Re: Sunfrost Headaches (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by nothing to lose on Mon Oct 04, 2004 at 03:37:34 AM MST

Not a problem with the Fridge, you need more power.

Most inverters are designed to shut off at about 10-10.5 volts to save your batteries. Running down to only 9V will damage them faster, less life. If your hitting 9V cutoff alot, then you are not producing as much power as you are using. Going to a higher voltage won't help, you still would not be producing enough.
 So what I think is you need something to produce that power and keep the batteries well above 11v anyway. If what you have now aren't reaching full charge then adding more won't help either, you'll just have more dead ones.

 Either that or you produce alot of power in a short time, but don't have enough batteries to store it and then when the production stops right away you use up what you have stored and need more batteries to store more. But only if your reaching full charge on what you already have.

Last thing is if your batteries are shot already, then they need replaced. I have some junk ones I am playing with I can charge to 13V but letting them sit over night they are dead in the morning, and that's with no load. SO If I were using them, they would look fully charged sometimes but might last an hour at most with a small load on them.
 When I take the charger off them I can watch a digital meter drop about .01V per second, and that's nothing connected but the meter.

Some advantages to higher volts yes. Like smaller wires, less loss to resistance. But if running an inverter for power, then use the same 120VAC wires and run them to the inverter near the batteries instead of 12vdc so far to the inverter. But if running DC then you have no choice but to run battery power over larger wires I geuss.

I'll be doing both eventually.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Sunfrost Headaches | 14 comments (14 topical)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  70 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· Also by devoncloud

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!