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Also for nothing to lose


By Gary D, Section Remote Living
Posted on Tue Sep 28, 2004 at 10:55:18 AM MST
no post a comment area on bottom of page

It sounds to me like your waterpipe from your pump either has a hole in it in the well, or else the coupling to the pump itself is breaking loose .
 If you pull the cap off the wellhead and open a faucet, you might hear the leak (if it's above the water level). It's doubtfull the pump is bad!!
  If you need to pull the pump, it helps to have a helper. Two people can easily do it. Just kill the power, unscrew the three wirenuts at the wellhead, and use a tee bar (you can make one) to screw into the pitless adapter. After that, it's just a few minutes of grunting work to pull the pipe and pump out. One person will need to walk the pipe away from the well (so no kinks in the black pipe). Every 20' or so there SHOULD be a disc to keep your wire and the pipe from rubbing the well sides. I'm betting someone um forgot to put these on. Just above the pump there NEEDS to be a rubber expandable torque arrester to keep the pump from spinning on startup. This should be adjusted as you start to drop your pump back down the casing... snug but not that you need to push the pipe down. Check for rubbed wires while you have the pipe out, an ounce of prevention you know...Sorry this is so long, (ex well driller here) hope you find an easy fix. Gary D.
Also for nothing to lose | 12 comments (12 topical)

Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Gary D on Tue Sep 28, 2004 at 11:14:11 AM MST

Before checking the well itself, check the contacts at your pressure tank (after killing the breaker and checking with a meter). Could be they are worn out. Also if you raise your pump, you'll need to unhook the safety rope, or wire for the lift. Strange my post has a post a comment on it and the others in water had none... Sorry too few brain cells working today   Gary D.



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by hrspwr on Tue Sep 28, 2004 at 12:39:17 PM MST

Check for voltage at the well head,coming from house. Is your pump equipped with a control box? You SHOULD have a low water pressure switch at the well tank, if not, the pump will burn up when the water is gone. Use a meter to check the amperage at the pressure switch, a surge of 11-16 amps at start is normal if the amps just hang up there the pump is bad. 6 years is on the low end of the life span of a pump, if it were mine I would replace it with a 1 h/p 7gpm unit 220v with a low water cut-off switch set at 40/60, tank at 30 psi, and replace all check valves while it is out. I do not use plastic cable guards or torque arrestors,instead I sleeve the submersible cable inside 1in poly pipe for at least 50 to 75 ft from the bottom, longer is better. Cable guards and torque arrestors are nice but it has been my experience that over time rocks can slide into the well and these items tend to catch rocks when you try to pull a pump out. With a deep static level of 100ft your pump should be set at 20-25 ft off bottom max. Rural wells here in central MD are routinely being drilled to 400ft plus and only yielding 1gpm. Good luck.



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by nothing to lose on Tue Sep 28, 2004 at 08:19:07 PM MST

Thanks guys.

Yep, I sort of checked most that. WIll try to check over anything I might have missed.

I am geting 2 120 legs to the pressure switch and at the capacitor box at the well housing. I checked the contacts at the switch, they looked ok but I filed em a little anyway to clean em. As for jumping across the legs for 220-240v I get a 1 :(
Darned meter is a digital and not reading that right! I also had the power company out to check power (different reason) and at the pole his meter showed 240 jumpping the legs, mine was still a one so I know that's the metter. Time for a new one??

As to resistance in the pump, I think the Cap starter box say I should have 3-4 and 10-12 depending which lines I test and I have the high side. like 3.5 and 11 Been  a few days since I checked that, I forgot what the exact numbers were supposed to be, but I was in range anyway.

Haven't opened the well yet. I am thinking maybe a leak in the well/pipe somewhere. We have been getting alot of rust out the taps for awhile. Just changed the hot water tank element, tank had lots of rust sitting in it. Far to much to be from the tank itself, would be leaking bad if it were. Only other metal would be the well pipe, everything else is plastic. But a heavy steel pipe rusting out in 5-6 years??

(Wife and kid wanted more hot water, so for now I was going to connect the electric tank up again for awhile till I build some more stuff.)

I tried to listen in the well, but still capped and haven't heard anything yet.

Only reason I haven't opened it is a worry of dropping the pump! Not something I've ever done before. Sounds easy enough, but getting any help would be the hard part.
 Kinda a loan wolf here, no-one I know ever does anything!

As for the electric, I have the Grid power ran to the well pump house then to the
house. SO the breaker is at the well basically. I did that for several reasons, one I can shut power to the house off and still have a well, and also when the house is off grid only the well will need the grid still.

So what's the danger of dropping a pump into the well if I screw up? And if that occured any way to get it out or is the well ruined?? I am normally the do it myself type, just a bit worried about dropping 300' of steel pipe and pump and needing a new $5000 well!! I do have 300' 2" heavy wall steel pipe laying in the yard I could use part to build a boom or such. Have a cheap 12v winch, but power in only. Will hold the load but no way to lower it but release it and let it free spin though I could probably rig something up to lower. How heavy is that going to be??
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Volvo farmer on Wed Sep 29, 2004 at 08:06:00 AM MST

Whoa there. If you don't see 240v across the legs, the pump ain't gonna run. From what you describe it sounds like you only have one leg of the 240V out there. I've seen this happen all the time with dryers and ranges. If it's wired wrong in the breaker box, you get the same 120V leg across both legs and you don't have 240V like you need. I'd be inclined to believe your meter. Even the cheapest ones I've seen will measure 240VAC.

Volvo farmer and amatuer electrician.

Volvo Farmer


[ Parent ]



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Gary D on Wed Sep 29, 2004 at 09:09:58 AM MST

   If your readings are in the right range, it would seem like the pump isn't shorted. Do you have a pitless adapter(to go thru the casing side to your run to the house)? If so, pulling the well cap will not drop the pump/ and or pump pipe. Many times the safety rope is  nylon wraped around the outside the well casing and tied off. That could rot due to U.V. rays tho... and could fall in if not held when removing the cap.
If the pump is pushing water, even if the built in foot valve was bad, you would get a pressure buildup till it reached the cutoff point at your tank. If the foot valve was bad, after the pump shut off, water would drain back and the pump would cycle again. That's why I came to the conclusion that if you didn't get pressure up,  there must be a leak. Could be the reason for excessive rust or casing particles you are seeing(spraying the side of the well).
 I have not ever tried to pull steel well pipe, haven't even seen it used around here except for a few hand dug 20 to 30 ft'wells. The weight difference over plastic pipe for 300' could be tremendous. Sounds like a pump puller is in order in this case. If it were me, I'd contact a  well contractor or plumber in your area to get help. Sorry I wasn't able to help... Gary D.

[ Parent ]


Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by finnsawyer on Wed Sep 29, 2004 at 09:50:17 AM MST

Some pretty good advice here.  Get a meter you know is working and make sure of the electrical supply to the pump.  As said, you need to make sure you have the 240 wired correctly.  Do you have rust or alkali?  They look the same.  Get a cheap test kit and test the water.  These things will tend to show up when the well is drawn down.  On the other hand, I'd be concerned if the pump is actually three feet off of the bottom.  The pump has a screen which can become blocked, especially if its located where sediment wants to build up.  If you do pull the pump, remove the top section of pipe and test it before raising it any further.  If you get lucky and performance returns to normal leave off the top section and smile.  Otherwise remove the pump.

I assume you have one inch pipe in the well.  Measure the distance from the top of the well casing to the pitless adapter.  Add one foot and get a piece of steel pipe that length, one tee, and two 2ft pieces of pipe. Make a tee, screw the free end into the pitless adapter, and lift the pipe off of the adapter.  At this point you know how much weight you're dealing with.  If you have iron pipe, it's a lot.  I installed the pump at my first house using iron pipe, but I never tried to raise it.  It's heavy.  Plastic's a lot lighter.  You may want to build a tripod and get or buy a decent hand winch.  I used the winch off of my sawmill.  Don't cut corners.  There's too much at stake.  You will also probably want some way to clamp the pipe.  Humans tend to make mistakes and let go at the wrong time.  I watched a 24 inch pipe wrench dive into the well once (my mistake).

At what level does the water come in?  Generally the pump should be slightly above this point as then any rocks or sand falling into the well would not interfere with the pump.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Sep 29, 2004 at 06:30:28 PM MST

Geting 2 120 legs to the pressure switch and at the capacitor box at the well housing. I checked the contacts at the switch, they looked ok but I filed em a little anyway to clean em.

Too late now but in the future don't FILE them!  That removes metal.  (Use a contact burnishing tool.  It looks like a little file but it just moves the metal around rather than taking it off.)

Meanwhile, reopen the switch and clean off any oil you left with alcohol or acetone.  (Beware fire risk.)

As for jumping across the legs for 220-240v I get a 1 :(   Darned meter is a digital and not reading that right! I also had the power company out to check power (different reason) and at the pole his meter showed 240 jumpping the legs, mine was still a one so I know that's the metter. Time for a new one??

Sounds like the meter was set to a scale where 120V was within bounds but 240 volt was an overload - so it "pegged" and read "1".  Check whether you have a higher voltage scale.

If you don't you can make a voltage divider out of a couple resistors to get it down to where the meter can read it.  Or just make a trip to your radio shack or whatever for an inexpensive new one that CAN read that high.  Analog meters are good for house voltages, too.  They average out screwy waveforms rather than getting confused.

Haven't opened the well yet. I am thinking maybe a leak in the well/pipe somewhere. We have been getting alot of rust out the taps for awhile. Just changed the hot water tank element, tank had lots of rust sitting in it. Far to much to be from the tank itself, would be leaking bad if it were. Only other metal would be the well pipe, everything else is plastic. But a heavy steel pipe rusting out in 5-6 years??

It's called "galvanic corrosion".  If you have even a tiny average DC current feeding the pipe (including a potential difference between the ground at the top and bottom of the well, or unbalanced load from a light-dimmer that's half-cycling), and part of the pipe ends up a bit positive relative to the water around it, you set up an electroplating cell that can rip the metal out of the pipe in a matter of weeks.  If your pipe is still usable I'd add a sacrificial annode near the wellhead to give it a little help staying negative.

Galvanization consists of plating a little sacrificial zinc on the pipe.  After it has sacrificed itself (typically due to well water with a pH far from the neutral 7) the pipe starts to rot.  Then you get a rapid increase in rust observed in the water as the pipe starts to go.

If you have been seeing rust all along I'd suspect it was from the well rather than the pipe going.

Regardless, if you have to pull up the pump for any reason you probably want to replace the pipe with PVC while you have it out.  (Tape the wiring to the pipe twice per 20'ish pipe section using tape intended for the purpose on the way back in.  DON'T tape the safety line.)

Only reason I haven't opened it is a worry of dropping the pump! Not something I've ever done before. Sounds easy enough, but getting any help would be the hard part.

The safety line should be fastened to the pipe fitting, not the well cap.  You can pull the cap without worrying about dropping the pump.

Pull the cap and run a weighted string down to check the water depth before worrying about whether the pump/plumbing is working.  Your well might be going dry of filling up with dirt.

As for the electric, I have the Grid power ran to the well pump house then to the house.

If you ever want to go off grid look for a "soft start" controller for the motor.  This will ease the peak load on your inverter.

SO the breaker is at the well basically. I did that for several reasons, one I can shut power to the house off and still have a well, and also when the house is off grid only the well will need the grid still.

Also required by some codes.  It lets the firemen turn off the house and still have the well pump running for a water source.

Not that it really matters, since a household well pump only provides a "drop in the bucket" for a firehose.  B-)  What you really need, if you don't have a handy lake or stream, is a big storage tank or a "firepond" that you filled with water BEFORE your house or field caught fire.  Consult your local fire marshal for sizing.  If you have land uphill from your house you can put it there and let it also provide pressure and water storage for your house.

So what's the danger of dropping a pump into the well if I screw up? And if that occured any way to get it out or is the well ruined??

Should be possible to fish it out even if you drop it.  It's just a lot harder than if you don't.  B-)

I am normally the do it myself type, just a bit worried about dropping 300' of steel pipe and pump and needing a new $5000 well!! I do have 300' 2" heavy wall steel pipe laying in the yard I could use part to build a boom or such. Have a cheap 12v winch, but power in only. Will hold the load but no way to lower it bu release it and let it free spin though I could probably rig something up to lower. How heavy is that going to be??

Before doing it yourself, why don't you get an estimate from your local well driller for pulling the pump, checking it and the well out, and replacing the galvanized pipe with PVC?  He has the special equipment for doing it easily and quickly.  (Including the winch/derrick on the back of his truck, special hardware to grip the pipe, an air pump to clean out the well if it's full of dirt, and non-toxic waterproof electrical tape he bought by the case.)  He buys pipe wholesale and sells it to you retail, while you probably have to buy it retail no matter where you get it, so you're even there unless you have a deal with the plumbing outlet.  Once you've seen it done you'll be able to make an informed decision on whether to do-it-yourself or hire his service if anything ever goes wrong again in the future.

(I got the opportunity to do this for free recently when my well pump/motor was replaced as part of a warranty upgrade of misdesigned pump controller that was jamming my radio reception.  B-)  )

[ Parent ]



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by finnsawyer on Wed Sep 29, 2004 at 08:53:09 PM MST

>Pull the cap and run a weighted string down to check the water depth before worrying about whether the pump/plumbing is working.

Not a reliable procedure with the pump in.  A spreader or the wires may interfere with the line and weight.  Just my opinion.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by hrspwr on Wed Sep 29, 2004 at 12:37:24 PM MST

It looks like you have plenty of qualified help here so I am going to just add some personal experience. Back in the late 80`s I was on a job that changed out a deep well from galvanized pipe to poly. We used a backhoe to pull the pipe out 10 feet at a time and lots of chains to secure it while it was re-setting. If you drop this pipe and pump in the well you can try to use chains or ropes to fish the pitless, and if that doesn`t work many well drillers have bits that can chew a pump out, but not cheaply.

 One more suggestion while I am here, remove the pressure switch and nipple it is on. Look into the small orifice on the bottom side of the switch, many times with galvanized rust will form here and render the pressure switch near useless giving the system bizarre instructions.



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Gary D on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 03:44:32 AM MST

One other thing that could be happening : if you have an older pressure tank with no bladder or the bladder has ruptured you could have lost the air needed for your system to work properly. This could cause wierd things to happen. It's been 20+ years since I had a pressure tank with no bladder, but if I remember correctly the pump cycled almost continuously... I just had to kill the electric, open a cold water faucet, and drain the tank for about 5 minutes to get air back in the tank. Then I'd shut off the tank drain and the cold water faucet and turn back on the pump. Problem solved. With a jet pump I could hear when the tank needed more air, If a submersible pump, the only thing you'd hear would be the contacts clicking. Just another possibility... probably not worth 2 cents.  Gary D.



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by nothing to lose on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 05:14:10 AM MST

Thanks for all the help and info.
 Wish the well driller had provided some of the same when we drilled and set the pipe/pump! I think I would have gone plastic then if I knew half of what you guys  saying back then. If I have a leaking pipe, that probably would not have happened, and no rust or deplating either. Plus the lower wieght I could pull it myself, which I may do then replace with plastic. Depending on the costs to have the installer do it.

 I am out of warruntee now. I have called and the installer is going to come out and check it, see if any  thing above ground could be wrong. $50 sevice call and he said that'd probably include fixing it if above ground.

$900 to replace the pump he said, but I been looking at pump prices and that seems pretty high for a days labour??? I think the same size type pumps are in the $400 range maybe? Course he has all the equipment to pay for too, and maybe a helper to pay I geuss.

My well has the pipe comming out the cap straight up then into a T. The saftey cable or whatever he used is inside the casing.

My meter is not reading the 240v for sure since I checked it at the power pole when I had the grid service here, his read 240v mine read 1.  So I am geussing I do have the 240 I should at the pump, I did all the recent wiring and that's correct. And as for the points I used an emery board and hit them lightly to clean them up and made sure I didn't leave any grit also.

 The bladder tank is ok, I checked the pressure too was 28lbs, and no above ground leaks. I have a shut off in the pump house to shut down the pipe to the house. I turned off the house so the water was just coming out the well to the bladder tank and then there is a pipe that goes under ground and back up to the outside frost free facet to the hose. At the bladder tank there is a T, in from well out to tank, out to pipe for house and factet, and was a presure blow by valve. Till I broke it off! At that valve I have no presure with everything shut off, just the 2,5 gpm. That's as close to the well as I can get, about a foot'

 I geuss looking at the bright side, if it has to be pulled and I replace the steel pipe with plastic, then I have about 300' of steel pipe to build a tower with or use for studs for a metal building :)
 If it didn't rust too bad.

 I'll reffer to the information everyone has posted here already and look for any new postings too.  Any suggestions, links to sites, etc.. that will help if I pull the pump myself (if needed) are greatly apreciated and advice on pumps and prices too.

 If I do this myself I should be able to make a steel frame to mount a winch pulley for pulling out the steel pipe then. I have heavy wall 2" pipe here, about 250-300' of it. 20-25' lengths.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: Also for nothing to lose (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by nothing to lose on Wed Oct 06, 2004 at 03:19:04 PM MST

 Thanks for all the help and info.
 Luckily the well problem was a bad capacitor and is now working great again.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Also for nothing to lose | 12 comments (12 topical)
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