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magnet based yaw brake


By jacquesm, Section Wind
Posted on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 09:03:26 AM MST
Toms brilliant idea needs some numbers

Hi to all of you, I have a problem:

I wanted to use an active tail on my machine (5m rotor), but as Dan already remarked to me in conversation that's pretty fancy (I want to keep the cost down as much as I can).

Tom came up with a brilliant solution, use a number of magnets on a disc that sits above another disc. This will brake the rotation of the machine around the tower by incuding eddy currents in the second disc.

Now for the questions:

How much 'braking effect' can I expect from this, and how many magnets will I need to use at what size disc to brake the rotation sufficiently to reduce the chance of damage in turbulent winds ?

I have a good supply of 1x2x1/2 " magnets, so I would prefer to use those.

magnet based yaw brake | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 09:40:34 AM MST
(User Info)

Quite a lot I think.

It's a bit difficult to decide what the rotational speed needs to be limited to to be effective. Assuming it is in the region of 30 rpm and that may be too fast, I think it would be a reasonable point to start with about 20 magnets.
You will have to determine the most effective damping arrangement, it may be a copper disc fixed to the fixed steel plate with perhaps 1/4" air gap or it might be more effective to slot the disc and cast aluminium in, like a flat squirrel cage rotor.

I have a feeling that this will cost about the same as the alternator to be effective. The low speed is the main problem, nice idea though.
Flux



Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 10:37:49 AM MST
(User Info)

Tom came up with a brilliant solution, use a number of magnets on a disc that sits above another disc. This will brake the rotation of the machine around the tower by incuding eddy currents in the second disc.

Brilliant.

Drag forces go up linearly with the speed of the motion, which is EXACTLY what you want to damp out an oscilation.

How much 'braking effect' can I expect from this, and how many magnets will I need to use at what size disc to brake the rotation sufficiently to reduce the chance of damage in turbulent winds ?

You can expect an ENORMOUS braking effect even from moderately small magnets.  I'd be surprised if more than a single pair was needed.  Pretend the region of the copper between the magnets is one coil of a genny and it's dead-shorted.

= = = =

I'd like to suggest an alternative geometry:

 - A vertical cylinder - basically, a hunk of copper pipe - around the central support.  Mount with standoffs at two heights to make it solid and provide clearance near the center.

 - A pair of magnets mounted on a piece of iron mounted to the bottom of the mill, hovering over the end of the copper pipe.  (Imagine aa pair of pliers about to grab it.)

The idea here is that dirt and water will tend to fall off rather than accumulate and foul the rotation, eventually freezing the mill in a particular position, or promoting corrosion of the parts.  (You'll still want to shroud the top if you're in a place where it gets really cold, so you don't have rime ice form some day and jam it anyhow.)

The opposed pair of magnets means the field is nearly uniform between then so the cylinder doesn't have to be perfectly straight and centered to get a constant drag.

To minimize the sideward load and wear on the central bearing, put the magnets at the same orientation from the axis as the normal (non-furled) orientation of the tail.

You can adjust the spacing of the magnets to adjust your drag.  (Mount them on bolts and use locknuts to fix them where you want them?).  You want it to be damped just enough that it doesn't wig-wag, because damping also slows furling.  (It should be about 10% underdamped for best wind tracking.  If it initially overshoots just a tad on a sudden wind change, you've got it.  "Critical damping", i.e. the minimum damping that gives you no overshoot, loses more from the delay in following the wind change than a slight overshoot loses by going too far.)

If the drag is too low, and you don't feel like stacking on more magnets, use a larger diameter pipe and try again.  The farther from the center, the greater the lever arm, and thus the greater the drag.




Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 10:42:32 AM MST
(User Info)

Alternatively, mount the copper cylinder on the mill and the magnet calipers on the post.  This will make it easier to get to them for adjustment.

(In this case put the calipers on the side opposite the prevailing wind or use two sets, one on each side of the mill support, if you want to keep the sideforce on the bearing down.  Or don't sweat it, since you won't cancel the side force from the tail anyhow.)

[ Parent ]



Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 05:22:00 PM MST
(User Info)

On second thought don't bother doing anything fancy with the magnet position to avoid bearing wear from side forces from the wind on the tail and rotation damping.  (They're a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the side forces from the wind on the mill blades.)

[ Parent ]


Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by jacquesm (j@ww.com- I run a whitelist, add 'stjoes' to msg) on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 10:50:06 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.greenbits.com/

that's pretty clever, I could even integrate that into the housing if I squeeze a bit. Torque is directly proportional to the diameter though, so maybe that would be too small.
www.greenbits.com
[ Parent ]


Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by RatOmeter on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 11:57:48 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.rato.us

Hmm, someone with a lathe might be able to test variations of this pretty quickly.
  1. chuck a length of copper pipe in lathe.
  2. run at several known speeds, measuring the lathe current draw with a clamp-on ammeter.
  3. repeat step 2 with different variations of magnets (gap, number magnets, etc), comparing the difference in current draw.
Measuring the current draw might be translatable to a ballpark measure of torque.

[ Parent ]


Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 05:19:32 PM MST
(User Info)

Hmm, someone with a lathe might be able to test variations of this pretty quickly.

     1.chuck a length of copper pipe in lathe.
     2.run at several known speeds, measuring the lathe current draw with a clamp-on ammeter.
     3.repeat step 2 with different variations of magnets (gap, number magnets, etc), comparing the difference in current draw.

Measuring the current draw might be translatable to a ballpark measure of torque.

How about:

    1. Chuck a length of copper pipe in lathe.
    2. Mount magnets on a pivot arm.
    3. Support the pivot arm with a spring scale.
    4. Torque = r * (f * dm / ds)

Where:
 r  = radius of pipe.
 f  = force measured by spring scale
 dm = distance from pivot to center of magnet
 ds = distance from pivot to scale attachment point

[ Parent ]



Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 11:30:29 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

This thought has come up before...

It would be difficult to speculate about the "Best" amount of damping I think - although I'd think 8 of these, running close to a thick copper disk would probably do quite a bit (guessing), although perhaps not for a 16' machine.

I think another big factor is the rotational weight of the alternator, and the hub (and the blades, although its the forces on the blades you want to avoid.  Just watching mine, and Matts larger machines we've made - they seem to move pretty slowly, even in gusty conditions.  I think it has to do with the weight of the rotating parts, mostly in the alternator and in the blade hub.  It would be fun to experiment... if it seems to be yawing too fast, with simply making the blade hub heavier.  Of course it'd  start a bit slower but it should balance out in the end.

My guess is that if the tail is not oversized there may be no problem to begin with.. hard to say I guess.  I've thought of such damping systems but I'd be inclined not to complicate things and add cost to the machine unless there is a problem.



Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Flux on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 12:29:42 PM MST
(User Info)

Dan
I wonder if there is quite an inherent damping effect with a pipe on pipe yaw bearing other than the friction on the top of the pipe.
As it yaws, the gyroscopic force will produce a twisting force that holds the pipes in closer contact, the greater the yaw speed. There is a large area of pipe in contact on the sides as it is twisted backwards and forwards. The greater the spinning mass, the greater this force will be.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by hvirtane (hannu_markus_virtanen(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 12:09:46 PM MST
(User Info) http://web.archive.org/web/20050404022706/www.cc.jyu.fi/~hvirtane/cooker/

There is no other way than to test,
how much you'll need.

If your machine is yawing a lot,
you might even use the yawing
brake disk as a heating system?
The disk will become warm while
it is braking.

Or you might put some coils there,
to get some usable power from
that disk, too...

- Hannu



Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by jacquesm (j@ww.com- I run a whitelist, add 'stjoes' to msg) on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 12:51:09 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.greenbits.com/

Hey Hannu,


That's a good one, but I don't think the number of revs around the tower would make that worthwhile, I'll just assume you are joking and trying to get me to reinvent the Darrieus rotor :)


The reason why I want the rotation slowed down is that this is a very windy area (middle of the Great Lakes), and some 'accident investigations' have yielded data that suggest that two things around here cause premature failure of machines:

  • crappy furling mechanims, which cause the machine to rebound on the tower
  • sudden direction changes while having high revs on the rotor


    Both are related to gusty winds, either directional changes or speed changes.


    The first one I hope to solve by using variable pitch instead of a system that moves the whole alternator (or the tail), the second needs some kind of way to control the rotation around the tower. It is true that the rotor excerts a net reduction in yaw rate as it is spinning, but this comes at the expense of a net moment on the shaft / blade roots. As long as those can cope that's not a problem, but in high wind conditions that could become a problem, and that is why I am looking for a real solution to this, engineered in to the machine rather than a happy coincidence.


    It will help to make this machine last in the pretty severe weather that we have here.


    One of the locals (that has owned many commercial windmills and who is now flying a 2.5 KW conversion machine) jokes that if this machine will last here it will last anywhere.



    www.greenbits.com
    [ Parent ]



  • Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#10)
    by BT Humble (bt_humble@bigpond.com) on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 04:21:54 PM MST
    (User Info) http://www.humbletown.org


    The reason why I want the rotation slowed down is that this is a very windy area (middle of the Great Lakes), and some 'accident investigations' have yielded data that suggest that two things around here cause premature failure of machines:

  • crappy furling mechanims, which cause the machine to rebound on the tower

    If the machine furls too quickly, perhaps a car or motorcycle steering damper (depending on how much damping force you need) attached to the tail boom pivot would help?

    BTH

    [ Parent ]



  • Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#13)
    by domwild (domwild at hotmail dot com) on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 10:11:31 PM MST
    (User Info)

    Hi,
    Would a folding rudder be considered to be a "crappy system"? The mill is offset a few inches from the pole and a spring loaded rudder + shock absorber work against the yawing head. Wouldn't that dampen the yawing by itself? Just an idea.

    Dominic

    dom We only ever use the best fencing wire for our repairs!
    [ Parent ]



    Re: magnet based yaw brake (3.00 / 0) (#14)
    by jacquesm (j@ww.com- I run a whitelist, add 'stjoes' to msg) on Tue Sep 28th, 2004 at 10:50:39 PM MST
    (User Info) http://www.greenbits.com/

    well, in and of itself a folding rudder is not a bad system at all, but we get 'ice storms' here, and they deposit literally enormous amounts of ice on everything and can freeze your precious mechanisms totally shut.


    The problem with that is that because of centrifugal forces the blade assembly usually stays clean of ice and does not lock up but the rest of the machine can be covered in solid ice up to 2" thick.


    So, a furling tail that works well further south may not work at all in the arctic wasteland that this region of Canada becomes during the winter. Unless it moves every few minutes it can be completely covered in ice while stationary and then by the time you need it it's locked solid.


    This 'magnet yaw brake' thingy is round and seems to be fairly easy to enclose (you can shroud the whole thing because it's rotationally symmetric, so the ice can't get at it).
    www.greenbits.com
    [ Parent ]



    magnet based yaw brake | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)
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