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Furling pictures


By DanB, Section Wind
Posted on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 05:52:59 PM MST
Some detail about the furling system

I wrote this up partially in response to whatsnext's request....  and there is always lots of confusion about this.  It's hard to explain but very simple once you see it in person.

I put this in a diary last year too, and might help some, that diary is here:
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/7/23/91925/4493

Bottom line, is the energy in the wind, and the abuse the wind turbine and tower must sugger is related to the cube of the windspeed.  So there's 8X the power @ 20mph as there is at 10, there's 64 X the power at 40mph as there is at 10mph, there is 510 X the power in an 80mph gust, as there is at 10mph.  Most good wind turbines should be designed to work nicely at 10mph... there is no way the alternator, or the tower - or any other part of the machine can hold up to 80mph and still work well at 10.  Especially if it's a larger machine, I can imagine smaller machines holding up to the abuse for a bit.  So some kind of furling system is absolutely necessary.

'Whatsnext' requested a picture looking straight down at the machine.  Here is a shot, straight down at the machine we built at the sustainable living fair.  It's in the normal running position - this is how it should run in 'normal' winds, perhaps below 25mph.

Here's a picture of it in the 'fully furled' position - this is what we'd expect in a very high wind.  Medium winds of perhaps 30mph... it would be somewhere inbetween the 1st picture, and the picture above.  The cool thing about this system, is that it should keep producing good power all the time, even in high winds.  Basicly, the alternator and blades are turning away from high winds, reducing (but not eliminating) their exposure to it.

Here is a side shot, of the machine in the 'normal' position.

And a side shot of it fully furled.  The tail pretty much stays with the wind, and it pivots on an inclined 'hinge' (a pipe over pipe sort of pivot).  When the alternator and blades turn away from the wind, the tail must be raised, and it is the force required to raise the tail that determins when it will start to furl.  It can easily be adjusted by adjusting the weight of the tail.

Click Here for a short, oversized (1.8mb so don't do this on a slow dial up!) movie where I demonstrate how it folds up.

Furling pictures | 30 comments (30 topical)

Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by robotmaker on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 06:06:11 PM MST

Dan, Freekin excellent explaination and the video ain't bad either.  Trade you a good oil stove for a windmill...(kidding) but at the point where the tail and the genset are connected, is that tubing cut at an angle to get that resistance ?
thanx again
rj



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by cevonk on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 06:35:51 PM MST

Something just came to mind about furling when I was reading your description of how the furling is adjusted by weighting the tail.  Instead of weighting the tail, how about adding some kind of spring compression?  Perhaps internal to the shaft around which the tail revolves.

On second thought, weighting or adjusting the size of the vane is probably easier.



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by DanB on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 11:47:35 PM MST

yes... here we only have 1 moving part - and no springs.  You could use a spring and not worry about the weight of the tail, but it would probably rust.. rattle... and wear out.  Its probably easier and more reliable to use an inclined pivot like this and avoid the use of a spring.

[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by daleh007 on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 03:54:11 AM MST

Great job Dan! What limits the travel of the tail? I couldn't really see any stops on tail hinge.
Daleh

[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by DanB on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 08:12:28 AM MST

I should've shown a picture of the tail pivot more closely.  The limits are exactly whats shown there, in the fully furled, and unfurled position, the stops are set by the notch I cut in the tail pivot itself.  The normal running position puts the tail poking about 15 deg counterclockwise from the direction of the wind if your looking down at the machine.  The fully furled position is about parallel with the blades, I set the stop just to make sure there is no way the blades can hit the tail.

[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 10:06:26 AM MST

For the same reason that high-quality scales
use counterweights and pivots (which don't
change value with age) rather than springs
(which do).  When your spring weakens with
age, if it holds your tail outyou furl too
soon and lose power.  If it helps pull the
tail in you furl too late and wreck the mill.

No springs, honest windspeed.  B-)

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by ghurd on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 07:14:13 PM MST

Dan,

Wow.
I was postponing anything about furling until I had the rest of it down.
Mountains out of mole hills.
No excuse for me now. (neighbors, cops, zoning, and trees. piece of cake)

Thanks
G-




Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by whatsnext on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 08:42:36 PM MST

Dan, Cool, that does tell a lot. I had never seen a picture that showed how the gen was offset from the centerline of the tower. It's quite clear now what's going on. One question, seeing how you have run them a bunch, have you ever had the furling pivot lock up? I know you guys don't like to use bearings but the furling pivot seems like a good place for them. If you could build a bit of lift into the tail there might be a way to give even more control over to the tail.
Thank You, John............



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by DanB on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 11:51:46 PM MST

I don't think a simple pipe, over pipe (or pipe over shaft... Ive done that too) could ever lock up.  Even  if it were neglected and rusty... it would work fine.  It can be a pretty loose fit.  A bearing would certainly work, but I dont think it necessary - it would just add complication in my opinion.  (and bearings do sometimes lock up)

[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by iFred on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:28:46 PM MST

Hi Dan! GREAT!!! THANK YOU!!!

But here is a question....

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/69/furl3a.gif

Lets say that we center mounted the generator as shown in the picture and this was done to put less stress on the center bearing because it's a huge generator with lots of weight.

Lets also say that we want furling on this generator but how do you do that if the generator is not offset as shown. How can we build a furling system for a center mounted generator??? Does it matter if it's in the center of the pole or not?? Would the furling system still work??

HELP!
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by whatsnext on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:49:55 PM MST

Fred, I'm pretty sure now that I've seen Dan's pics that the offset gen needs to be there to create a force which is then countered by the gravity vane. Have you ever seen a wind vane self steering on a sailboat? They use a very small area, perhaps one sqare foot in the wind, to steer a small rudder trailing behind the boat. That rudder, in the moving water, is where the power comes from to overcome the natural forces on the tiller of even a very large boat. I'm sure this system could be adopted to a wind gen using different sized tails, but why? If you have a very large gen you could just offset it a small amount to get the natural furling force. My gut instict tells me that you need some sort of variable pitch on the blades because the gyroscopic forces of a big blade would want to resist furling.
John.......

[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Harry Luubovv on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:47:44 PM MST

Hi Fred,

Sorry to answer before Mister DanB has a chance to, but here goes : The idea is to have some leverage to yaw the generator and blades away from the wind when there is too much of it. Without the generator body having any amount of offset from the center yaw point, there is no force to move the generator and blades off from the wind direction. Just like when we drive a car, how can we turn a corner without the steering wheel ? Yes we can try to turn the rod or shaft in the center of the steering column, but this is hard believe me, I have seen guys doing this before, but you can break your fingers before the corner is turned ! The forces required to turn in this case is just unreasonable. The wheel of the steering system is that leverage becuase the rim of the wheel has some distance away from the center column, the circumferance is sizeable comparing to no circumference. The principle here is the same as offsetting the generator from the yaw point.

If the generator is too large and you worry about the forces effecting on the yaw bearing horizontally, how about a vertical furling mechanism Fred ? Could you use that ?

Thanks for reading.
Harry Luubovv.

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by silverbug2 on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 11:12:32 PM MST

great photos!

Dose it make any difference if the windmill furlrs to the left or right, in relation to a clockwise or counterclockwise direction for the rotor blades?

The reason I ask is that I am in the middle of building my first mill, and I seem to be furling to the opposite side as everyone else.

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by JW on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 12:06:36 AM MST

Wow, this is really cool...

 I have observed the theory of "gravity furling" for quite awhile here, I mean for sometime :)...

 I can understand that the theory of such an air-foil-inhibitor-design can be so elusive,,, considering the "minimal"force exerted by the tangenetally angled "pivot bearing' in relation to gravity weight-to-force[ballist] counterforce in -equolibrium- at angle upswing(with relation to the directional vertical stabilizer)?. Nevertheless its my theory that the [tsr] rpm at the blade-tips is relative to impetus of aero-dynamics at the blade tip circumfrence that allows the rotating assembly to "slip" (blade tips experince air hockey table effect- in-essences they "may float" 'tangenetly')into a furled 'positioning" however the slipstream-forces 'must be relative to blade tip speed' at desired furling actioning... So increased loading should   at-least in theory- (decrease-RPM) and counter-act furling, relative to the gravity furling mechanism.

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Flux on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 02:40:45 AM MST

Doesn't matter which side you make it furl.

There is possibly some advantage in making it so the gyroscopic force is lifting the blades as you go into yaw, so there is less risk of the blades striking the tower.

This depends on the direction of rotation of the prop and the direction of furling.

Make sure it can't strike the tower and forget it.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by DanB on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 11:57:28 PM MST

Fred - Im not sure I quite understand your picture.
But if the generator is center mounted.. then I don't think this sort of furling system can work.  To be honest, I dont think the weight of the generator - being located to the side of the yaw bearing is a problem or an issue.  Eventually - yes, the yaw bearing (a pipe in this case) would wear throught.. but I bet it'd take a few years.

If you did insist upon mounting the generator on center with the pipe, you'd have to look at other options.  Lots of machines are setup this way... such the the generator (and the blades) tilt up to reduce their exposure to the wind.  That seems a popular system and I suspect it works well - I've never tried that.  According to Hughs book 'Windpower workshop' - it doesn't work as well... and it seems like most of the machines using that system are very small.  Having the alternator turn to the side, while raising the tail.... works really well I think, and I don't think the weight offset to the side is a problem.

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Flux on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 01:46:32 AM MST

To answer Fred's question, The furling tail idea comes from way back in the windpump days, when introduced by Wheeler or somebody it had the propeller centre mounted and the offset force to make it work was derived from a side mounted vane, smaller than the tail, fixed at right angles to the yaw head ( sticking out the side).

The operation was the same, the tail was spring loaded and large enough to be effectively anchored in space. When the force on the control vane exceeded the restoring force on the spring, the head rotated out of the wind.

It was a logical development to offset the propeller axis to produce the control force without the extra vane.

It was also logical to use the self closing gate idea to replace the spring.

If you dislike the offset alternator, the control vane works perfectly well, just looks a bit odd.

Regarding vertical furling, it's a nice idea in a perfect wind, but in a turbulent wind, as the tail yaws one way and the other, the gyroscopic force produces a force causing the alternator to lift or drop and the thing slams up and down like a jack in a box.  The cure is a yaw damper, but that is difficult and the cure normally adopted of using a damper on the vertical movement may make it workable, but I once tried a small one and would never do it again.  Perhaps larger machines are better just as large side furling machines seem better behaved.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by daleh007 on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 04:29:02 AM MST

A couple of things I noticed were the exposed magnets on the brake rotors and lack of paint or fiberglass. Sometimes I have seen the magnets potted or embedded in glass and was wondering if this is necessary. Are the magnets glued on in Dan's design? Would you want to paint the magnets to help protect them from corrosion? Oh, and what would happen if the magnets were slightly skewed in this exposed condition, would that tend to have a fan action that might aid in cooling?
Daleh

[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by DanB on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 08:19:07 AM MST

Hi Dale -

The magnets are 1/2" thick, and we poured the polyester resing about 1/4" deep...
My thinking here is that this will help cool the stator, perhaps not necessary.  Basicly, in this case, the resin serves only to keep the space between the magnets, they are also glued down with super glue, and there is a 'lip' in the edge of the brake rotor that should hold them from wanting to fly out.  Corrosion might be an issue someday, however the magnets are Nickel plated and I think they should hold up fine...  time will tell.  We live in a fairly dry (at least on a normal year) climate... it might be more of a problem in a wet place near salt water or something. There would certainly be no harm in covering the magnets with a thick coat of enamel or something, that would add some additional insurance.

Regarding having them skewed... it might improve the cooling slightly more, at the cost of output.  My guess is it wouldnt make much difference.  As it is - it blows a surprising amount of air past the stator.  The stator stays much cooler this way (when I test it on the ground) than it does when I pour the resin to the top of the magnets.

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by daleh007 on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 12:26:48 PM MST

Thanks for the info Dan pretty sure I understand the furling stops now. A quick detour, I hope, where do you folks get your resin? Is it a local item or something that's worth sending off for?
Daleh


[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by DanB on Sat Oct 02, 2004 at 07:32:45 AM MST

I just use 'Bondo' brand... polyester resin, you can buy it at any auto parts store usually by the gallon for about $25.  1 gallon is enough to build at least 2 machines.

[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by windstuffnow on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 02:12:59 PM MST

  iFred,
    If you have a center mounted generator/alternator you can use a tilt back furling system.   A the gen, tail, blades etc are mounted on a piviot, there is a weight in the front controlling tilt from gravity.  When the wind load on the prop exceeds the weight it will start to lift.   So the offset would be the difference between the center of the shaft to the tilt piviot and the weight will always pull it back into place when the wind pressure is reduced.   Similar calculations can be used for this system as hughs system.

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by hiker on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 04:45:51 AM MST

okay.
theirs a  lot of back pressure from the blades -when the wind strikes them..
so if the gen is off set from the pole, it would want to turn out of the wind..
but then the tail  comes into play--it keeps the gen into the wind till a certian
point--being the tail is at a angle[pivot point] that is..it can only hold the
blades into the wind untill the back pressure from the blades -overides the angle of
the pivot point[and weight of tail]-then your mill will start to furl,,,tail is still
into the wind--its the gen that turns out...
WILD IN ALASKA


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by Gary D on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 05:33:31 AM MST

One question/comment came up on an earlier thread on alternitive meathods of furling. During and after a freezing rain event, the tail would be harder to furl (heavier and caked with ice). For many of us, normally 1/4 to 1/2" wouldn't weigh down the tail down that much. But remember the Canadian ice storm that took out so much of the grid? For several inches of ice hanging off the tail, I wonder how much weight would need to be removed (beforehand)to keep an offset from furling too late? Drop the mill in late Fall, remove x ammount of weight and in Spring add it back. The mill would then normally furl earlier producing less, but not blow up after such an event when you'd need the power the most... Just musing here.  Gary D.



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by DanB on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 08:23:33 AM MST

Thats an interesting thought.
I think the beauty here, of this system.. is that if we remember that the power in the wind is related to the cube of the windspeed...  then the difference in the forces between a 20 mph wind and a 30 mph wind is huge.  So even adding quite a lot of weight would still probably allow the machine to furl at a reasonable time.  I also think that on a very windy day ice might not tend to build up so much, and if it did.. it might tend to break loose more quickly, hard to say.  I wonder if there is some kind of coating you could put on the tail that would help it not stick so tightly.  

[ Parent ]


Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Barnac on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 08:04:51 AM MST

Hi Dan,

What an excellent post. The video explain it all. A few weeks ago I tried to explain how it worked to my brother only with drawings and he couldn't get it. or maybe my drawing skills were really bad...

Now I will show him the video.

If a picture worth a thousand words how many words a video worth ???

:-)

Regards from montreal with a hockey lockout and a baseball team moving...



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by richhagen on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 05:04:56 PM MST

Nice photos, I do not have a good understanding of the physics involved in the furling system, and the pictures do a lot to help straighten that out.  I'm in the process of building a smaller scale of your turbines, and plan to attempt to employ a scaled down version of the furling system.

Slightly off thread, but I read somewhere about ATH - Aluminum Trihydrate being added as a filler to larger resin castings to increase the thermal conductivity of the casting to bleed off the heat generated while the casting is curing.  I was thinking that if the stator casting conducted heat better, it might help slightly to protect your turbines in prolonged high wind conditions  (I've never managed to generate enough power for that to be a problem yet).  I did a google search of the discussion board on the subject which yielded negative results.  I noticed that you had used talcum as a filler in the past, and was wondering if you had experimented with the Aluminum Trihidrate in any of your stators, or what your thoughts on that might be.
Rich Hagen

'A Joule saved is a Joule made'



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by silverbug2 on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 09:43:53 PM MST

I noticed the hole in the top of the post( is this were the wire goes?)

I always asumend that you would need some kind of slip ring to transmit the power from a movable generator into a stationary pipe or tower.

If the mill turns on the axis of the tower, surely the wire would become twisted and broken. I have found no mention of this in Huges book. Am I missing the obvious?

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by DanB on Sat Oct 02, 2004 at 07:26:11 AM MST

Hi Silverbug2.

"I noticed the hole in the top of the post( is this were the wire goes?)"

Yes... exactly.  The line drops through that hole and through the whole tower.  I put a hole at the bottom of the tower for the wire to come out.

"I always asumend that you would need some kind of slip ring to transmit the power from a movable generator into a stationary pipe or tower."

No... you don't need it, though many machines use them.  It does complicate things however.  If you build slip rings  - they have to be reallly well made.  If they fail - the machine will overspeed with no load and it could result in a total failure I think.  Slip rings will add some some resistance, theyre too small theyll get hot - they require a precision fit where the machine rotates on the tower (I dont think a simple pipe over pipe yaw bearing would cut it).  Certainly you could do it - it'd be a lot more work and Im doubtful that in most cases it'd be more reliable.

"If the mill turns on the axis of the tower, surely the wire would become twisted and broken. I have found no mention of this in Huges book. Am I missing the obvious?"

You might re-read it, I think there is a bit of discussion on this in Hughs book.  The wire can twist many times inside the tower before it breaks, and most likely if it winds up that tight, and if you used quality cable, the machine will be more likely to unwind than wind up further.  I put a big locking plug at the bottom of the tower, and check it on occasion - if its twisted I can unwind it.  In practice - I check it every couple months and often its fine...  sometimes it has a couple twists in it and I let it unwind.  How often it needs attention depends on the location I think - if it's very turbulant and the tower is very short (these two things tend to go hand in hand.. short towers mean turbulant wind) if may need more frequent checking.  I've never seen any damage to a line with a system like this.  You'll find the same system used on AWP machines, it's very simple, and very reliable I think.

[ Parent ]



Re: Furling pictures (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by silverbug2 on Sat Oct 02, 2004 at 09:14:12 AM MST

thanks for the great answer,

[ Parent ]


Furling pictures | 30 comments (30 topical)
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