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Leland Altenator


By wildbill hickup, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sat Jan 1st, 2005 at 12:46:53 PM MST
Update: Hz but no volts(well almost none)

Well I got the Leleand rigged up and spinning. All I can get it to is about 700-800 RPM at this point(available belts pulleys and the like) and that doesn't seem to be enough, plate says 1800. I get a Hz reading of about 28-29 but voltage is 1-1.2 VAC.

My thought is this is probably induction type, similar to the induction motor and capacitor type I have read about. Ex. motor rated at 1725RPM spin to 1825 with correct cap and you get AC power.

Questions: Am I on the right track? Is there anyway to produce power with this at a lower speed (short of installing mags) For various reasons I would like to be able to generate power (less than 110 is OK) at a lower speed if I can. 600-900 would be perfect and say 24 volts.

Any help or ideas would be great

Wildbill

 

Leland Altenator | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Jan 1st, 2005 at 01:13:32 PM MST
(User Info)

My thought is this is probably induction type, similar to the induction motor and capacitor type I have read about. Ex. motor rated at 1725RPM spin to 1825 with correct cap and you get AC power.

If I am correct about how it works, the operating frequency of an induction generator, in the absense of a grid connection providing it with a hard voltage source at a controlled frequency, is solely controlled by the resonance of the inductance of the windings with the attached capacitors (if you dedicate one winding to excitation) or with the combination of the capacitors and the reactance of your load (if you wire all the windings to the load).

So if you multiply the capacitor value by N you'll divide the operating frequency and RPM by N.

So get three run capacitors (or three per phase if you want to hook up all three phases for max output), of a size intended for a motor of about that power.  Or get one (or one set of three) intended for a motor about three times as large.  Hang them across its output(s), crank it up, and see what it does.  You have some residual magnetization in the rotor already - you can tell because it puts out a LITTLE when you spin it.  When it spins up to the resonance the voltage should suddenly climb, the current in the coils climb drastically until the core saturates, and the speedup with increasing wind input shoud be drastically reduced as the squirrel-cage tries to spin faster than the pumped-up field's rotation and the slippage produces eddy currents.

Voltage will be reduced about in proportion to the frequency reduction, so you'll get something near 36 volts at load with a 20 Hz resonance - although the voltage will climb with RPM as the rotor slips more.  Current doesn't change since it's limited by the core saturation - which is good since it's ALSO limited by coil heating melting the motor's windings.  B-)  Core saturation is bad in a motor (where it produces a drastic current rise) but great in a (stand-alone) generator (where it puts a cap on current).

Once you get it generating, you can adjust the generation-start speed and voltage up or down by adjusting the amount of capacitance.  Higher capacitance, lower startup and lower voltage.  I think you'll want it to start generating at a voltage somewhere between that needed to produce the float voltage and that needed to perform an equalizing charge.

(Once you run the experiment please let us know whether I got this right.)

I recommend you don't run the genny for more than a few tens of seconds without a load, as the heating (both in the cores and the rotor squirrelcage) may exceed the motor's design limits if the wind gets too high.  Putting a charging load on the genny and getting your furling system working will hold things down to a level the motor can handle.

Also:  Unlike a magneto, shorting an induction generator can suck out the excitation and eliminate drag, letting the blades overspeed.  (I'm not sure whether that will happen when you short it, or if it will first drag the rotor speed down, possibly to a near-stop, and THEN let it spin up and run away.  I think it will do one or the other depending on whether you're using one coil just for excitation.  Either way it's not good.)  Induction generator drag is good for a speed governor.  But if you want an electric brake you have to feed it a bit of DC.

A charging load is especially nice for an induction generator.  It doesn't kick in until the voltage reaches the battery voltage.  That means it doesn't suck out your excitation on startup and leave you with a device that just spins rather than generating power.  B-)



Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Jan 1st, 2005 at 01:25:01 PM MST
(User Info)

Just noticed that you said it was a leland alternator, not a motor.

If so, and if it is an induction type, it will normally be wound with a separate excitation winding and there should be a capacitor attached already.

To lower the startup speed you'll want to repace that with one of three to four times the capacitance and the same voltage rating (or higher if you can't find one rated the same).  You can parallel smaller capacitors and their capacitance adds.

If the alternator has been unused for several years, and the old capacitor was a non-polarized electrolytic, it may have deteriorated.  In that case the generator might not kick in even if you managed to spin it up to the resonant speed.

[ Parent ]



Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by wildbill hickup (wildbill_hickup at yahoo.com) on Sat Jan 1st, 2005 at 01:35:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks I was just trying to digest your last post. the cap that is in there reads as follows 2X 5MFD 400VDC it doesn't seem to be polerized but I take a second look.

[ Parent ]


Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by wildbill hickup (wildbill_hickup at yahoo.com) on Sat Jan 1st, 2005 at 04:29:25 PM MST
(User Info)

Hope this helps. First time trying to transfer a schematic so I hope it works. I wish I had adigital camera so I could photo this , but I'll do my best to explain.

C1 and C2 appear to be the same though I can't read the value of C2, C1 reads 2X .5 MFD 400VDC both are approx 2"X 2"x.5" case appears to be aluminum they are rectangular and do not have polarization markings. I'm not sure but I think MFD stands for millifared, .5 microfared would seem to be pretty small.

The coils L1 and L2 are mounted in a frame and sit next to each other, but appear to be insulated from one another and from case. They are #10 (or bigger) varnished copper wire. At first I thought they were some sort of relay but that is not the case. It's dificult to see bit the winding seeem to be more than one layer deep.

As I hope I showed in the schematic the caps are in parallel with the windings and the outlet plug and the coils, each in series with the output legs.

Well here goes with the schematic.



[ Parent ]



Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by drdongle (Dr.Dongle1@juno.com) on Sat Jan 1st, 2005 at 04:50:47 PM MST
(User Info)

I think what you have here is a NOISE filter

Carpe Vigor

Dr.D
Carpe Vigor, Dr.D
[ Parent ]



Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by wildbill hickup (wildbill_hickup at yahoo.com) on Sat Jan 1st, 2005 at 05:05:27 PM MST
(User Info)

Duh, choke coils well slap me silly. Guess I better get out those smart pills again. Thank's Dr.D

[ Parent ]


Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by drdongle (Dr.Dongle1@juno.com) on Sat Jan 1st, 2005 at 06:22:27 PM MST
(User Info)

Tis nothing Bill, I have had my hands in LOTS of military gear and the AC lines are always well filtered.

Carpe Vigor

Dr.D
Carpe Vigor, Dr.D
[ Parent ]



Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Jan 3rd, 2005 at 01:32:59 PM MST
(User Info)

I think what you have here is a NOISE filter.

Sure looks like one.

Is there another, BIG capacitor in the alternator somewhere?

Or some external-to-the-rotating-machinery circuitry (say to monitor a voltage and provide a small DC signal to another stator winding)?

One thing I have seen in the past is an alternator with a tiny, separate, excitation generator haning off its end.  The alternator was in about the 50 horsepower range and   the excitation generator looked about the size of a fan motor.  But the exciter was a 3-phase armature with a DC field coil on the stator.  It had rectifier diodes on the rotor and fed the resulting DC in wires up the shaft to the generator - which had a DC field coil on the ROTOR and AC windings on the stator.  Result:  No brushes or slip rings, control current in on a stator winding, power out on other stator windings.

You could do that same stunt on a single rotor, by putting an additional DC winding on the stator and suitable windings and one or more diodes on the rotor.  (If you wind the machines so the number of poles in the excitation generator mode and the power alternator mode are relatively prime the two modes don't interfere with each other.)

Some generators do something like that to stick the magnetic field (for the generation mode) to a particular spot on the rotor, rather than having a squirrelcage and the associated field slip.  (I think they are powered by the ringing from an excitation tank circuit on the stator rather than an explicit regulator circuit.  In fact their voltage might be regulated by saturating the rotor.)

[ Parent ]



Re: Leland Altenator (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by wildbill hickup (wildbill_hickup at yahoo.com) on Tue Jan 4th, 2005 at 06:34:02 PM MST
(User Info)

No other big cap that I can see. However there is a fairly large endcap on it. I guess I'm going to have to start taking this thing apart. I start there. It's vented and would probably be big enough to contain the components you discribe.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll probably continue this tread in my diary. Thanks again  

[ Parent ]



Leland Altenator | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial)
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