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Trace inverter fried


By FishbonzWV, Section Controls
Posted on Sun Jan 30th, 2005 at 12:46:57 AM MST
Could a solar desulfator controller do it?

Hi all,

My Trace 1012 inverter let go of some smoke this fall. I wasn't there when it happened so I don't know exactly what was in use at the time.
The system is 4 6v 220Ah VRLA's, a Trace voyager 1012, a 50W PV panel with 5A solar desulfator controller, and a generator to charge with. The controller was added late summer and I was wondering if it is the culprit that took out the Mosfets.

I thought I might try repairing the board but the number on the Fets must be proprietary or Traces own markings.  761455   H005   BNS
I've Gobbled and Youhooed for days on these numbers with no success.

So...does anyone run a desulfator while the inverter is on.




Bonz

Trace inverter fried | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Sat Jan 29th, 2005 at 07:06:37 PM MST
(User Info)

What you could do is contact their tech service support politely like, and ask what type of replacement mosfets they suggest. If you are really really nice about it, sometimes they will tell you. Also depends on the hour or time of day when you call (morning is best sometimes). Ask to speak directly to a technician in the back room regarding a difficult technical question, do not tell them what the problem is (front desk avoidance), when speaking with the technician, then politely ask what the mosfets are or what you could replace them with. This has to do more with politics and forward presentation then anything else, but I can tell you it works having done this for years.

You might even ask them if they have replacement mosfets for sale (for replacement and service) should they not want to tell you. If all else fails, goto your nearest tv repair shop, give him $20 for the time, let them order them for you, shops have more pull then an individual.

Worst case and having exhusted all other options, email me, i'll get them for you.

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by ghurd on Sat Jan 29th, 2005 at 07:27:52 PM MST
(User Info)

What brand controller?
We run them together all the time (SG-4, SS-6/10).

Those 12V 'ionizer' air cleaners will cook the inverter if they are on the same battery.

G-



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Tom in NH (tom@altenergyweb.com) on Sat Jan 29th, 2005 at 07:46:23 PM MST
(User Info) http://altenergyweb.com

You would think that if your desulfator would cause problems, it would have fried your inverter within the first 20 minutes of your hooking it up. Is it possible the batteries were disconnected and your solar panel or generator fed the inverter directly?

I fried the mosfets of a xantrex inverter about 6 months ago when I disconnected the batteries, kept the solar panels connected, and then plugged a power cord into the receptacle of the inverter. There was nothing at the other end of the cord. The Xantrex service people asked me if the inverter input voltage had gone high. At the time I said no, but on reflection, I guess it probably did go up to about 18 volts or so. I don't know if that's enough to damage the inverter, but I have been very careful not to expose my new inverter to high voltage, mainly by never disconnecting the batteries without first disconnecting the solar panels. So far, it has worked flawlessly (knock wood!)

I understand desulfators can put considerably more than even 18 volts into the system. --tom



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by FishbonzWV on Sun Jan 30th, 2005 at 04:57:59 PM MST
(User Info)

Tom,

The system is at a remote farm and I think the first time the inverter was on was during hunting season...about a month after I installed the controller. My hookup was directly to the bank (fused). I use a quick disconnect like the ones on a forklift battery to attach the batts to the inverter.
Was the inverter you fried not worth repairing or too far gone?

Bonz

[ Parent ]



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ibedonc on Sat Jan 29th, 2005 at 08:57:54 PM MST
(User Info)

I bet you it fired more then the fets , I.E drivers and more
so just replacing the fets is problaby not going to help you



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by ghurd on Sat Jan 29th, 2005 at 09:07:34 PM MST
(User Info)

Me too.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by baggo (baggo@copperstream.co.uk) on Sun Jan 30th, 2005 at 11:40:31 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk

Ouch, that looks expensive! That looks like the sort of damage caused by a short circuit on the AC side of things.

I'm not familiar with Trace inverters but I presume this will be similar to other MSW inverters and your pics are of the H bridge output stage? That's a hell of a lot of mosfets for 1000Watts output so they must be quite low current rating. Looks as though there are 6 in parallel for each leg of the bridge. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a suitable replacement by looking through data sheets.

As has been suggested though, the drive circuitry may also be damaged so it will be no good just changing the output mosfets without checking the rest of the circuit. If you can trace back (no pun intended!) the gate connections from the mosfets they will be driven through a low value resistor from a driver transistor and these often go short circuit in circumstances like this.

Also it is quite probable that some or all of the mosfets in the DC to DC converter stage will have also blown.

I find the easiest way to tackle a repair like this is to remove all the mosfets and test them off the board (a simple test has been discussed on this board). Before replacing any of them I power up the DC to DC board and check the drive pulses to the mosfets with a scope. I also test the rectifier diodes that convert the AC output from the DC to DC stage to the high voltage DC as these sometimes blow. I then replace the DC to DC mosfets and check the DC on the smoothing caps. NOTE this is several hundred volts and not to be messed with!! You need to discharge the caps with a suitable resistor after testing to remove the dangerous voltages before going any further.

I then check the drive pulses to the H bridge mosfets to make sure they are OK.Then I just replace 4 of the output mosfets (one in each leg of the bridge) and check the final AC output. This ensures that if there is still a problem you will only blow 4 of your new mosfets instead of all of them! If this is ok I replace the rest of them. Hopefully that's the job done.

Altogether not a job for the faint hearted!

HOWEVER, I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND DOING THIS UNLESS YOU ARE CONFIDENT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. You are dealing with potentially LETHAL voltages in an inverter and if careless you may not get a second chance.

Good luck!

John



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by FishbonzWV on Sun Jan 30th, 2005 at 05:07:14 PM MST
(User Info)

Here's the rest of the inverter. Not much more inside
Large Xformer, Triac Board on bottom with bypass relay, control board on right side.



Opposite side has Triac can on base and Caps.







Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by baggo (baggo@copperstream.co.uk) on Sun Jan 30th, 2005 at 05:53:18 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk

Hi Bonz,

thanks for posting the other pics. Looks as though it uses the large transfomer to step up the voltage. Can you say where the incoming battery terminals are connected? Just trying to figure if the blown mosfets switch the low voltage DC or the AC.

John

[ Parent ]



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by FishbonzWV on Sun Jan 30th, 2005 at 07:21:53 PM MST
(User Info)

Hey Baggo,

The batts connect to the blue wires leading to the Xformer (there is another set of whites to the other input). If you look at the top center of the first pix of the Fet board you can see a diode and I think a small cap that was cooked also. I haven't tested the plus bank of Fets yet to see if any are blown. I've got a homemade junction tester that you use a 'scope with and see what's up. Looks like it was just the minus rail. I think the board runs over $300 for replacement. Sure would like to repair this one!

Bonz

[ Parent ]



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by FishbonzWV on Sun Jan 30th, 2005 at 07:36:07 PM MST
(User Info)

My bad!

Trying to answer that from memory. The batts are attached to the center rail...it's a double rail in the center. The Xformer is attached to the upper and lower rails.

Sorry

[ Parent ]



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by TomW on Sun Jan 30th, 2005 at 07:53:04 PM MST
(User Info)

Fish;

Having worked on lots of powerful transmitters and a few other electronic devices, please let me try to cast some light on the difference between cause and effects of failures.

Just assume you find a few fried FETs, a diode and a couple of caps that are obviously blown.

You buy the replacement parts and you install this [hypothetical] $100 pile of parts.

You do a perfect job.

You power up the unit. It runs for awhile and pooph blows all those parts again.

You will have discovered the effects of whatever failure is happening either before or after the FETS, diode or capacitors. Now you have thrown good money after bad.

I just think people should understand that a lot of these devices are very complex and the part with the burn mark on it may not be what is actually wrong. Troubleshooting over the internet with no schematics or parts layout is a shot in the dark at best and could be extremely dangerous to the person doing the repair and power tests as well as anyone occupying a structure it is connected to. Sometimes hiring a pro is well worth the cost.

Not to be negative just mentioning the reality of power electronics

T

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Drives (drivesdeanw at yahoo.com) on Tue Feb 1st, 2005 at 04:01:47 PM MST
(User Info)

Having worked on power electronics for the past 20 years from wattages of 100 to 1 million....I can attest that TomW is 100 percent correct.  It is fantastic to see 24 transistors (each rated at 800 amps 1600 volts) blow up in a loud explosion when someone over looks the fact that the original problem was a shorted (not visible) ribbon cable.  :)
---------Dean-----------
[ Parent ]


Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by baggo (baggo@copperstream.co.uk) on Mon Jan 31st, 2005 at 03:44:24 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk

Hi Bonz,

Thanks for the extra info. However, I agree with TomW's comments. As I said before, if you are not confident, don't try repairing it yourself, find a repair man who can do it for you. Better safe than sorry.

Some ideas now for either you or your repairman:

The mosfets are switching the 12 volts DC to the transformer so this makes it a bit easier and safer to work on. They will be low voltage but high current rating. Something with a Vdss of say 55 volts and a current rating of at least 50 Amps for reliability. The mosfets are N channel and the package looks like D2PAK. STmicroelectronics do a wide range which would be suitable e.g STB80NF55 or STB150NF55. These should be more than adequate for the job. I would suggest ringing their technical department and explain the problem.

If you can find out what the original part is, all the better. However, in either case I would recommend replacing ALL of the mosfets. Even those that appear OK may have been stressed and could fail at a later date.

If you decide to have a go yourself then you will have to thoroughly check the rest of the circuit in case there are other failed components. Power the board up without the mosfets and check the drive pulses to the mosfet gates as mentioned before. Put a low amperage fuse in the battery supply just in case and if possible use a small battery for testing, not your main battery bank!

With regard to the cause of failure in the first place, it could be due to your use of the desulphator. These do put out very high voltage spikes which could exceed the working voltage of the mosfets.

Hope this helps, but take care!

John



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by FishbonzWV on Mon Jan 31st, 2005 at 08:05:22 AM MST
(User Info)

John,

I had already resigned to the fact that I had to get a new board but thought I might repair this one for a backup. The inverter has less than 100 hours on it.
Since I work in the electronics industry I'm asked quite frequently if I work on TV's. The first question out of my mouth is 'How old is it'... if they say more than 8, I tell them to buy a new one because it's not worth repairing.
With everything being micro circuitry and nano technology now a days you can't hardly repair boards.

What ever happened to the good old days of TTL logic when you grabbed a handful of 7400's and a data probe and spent 8 hours checking gates!
A simple I/O panel used 144 14 pin chips and you used a Teletype to program the 4K ferrite core memory!

Thank for the replies

Bonz


[ Parent ]



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by baggo (baggo@copperstream.co.uk) on Mon Jan 31st, 2005 at 11:14:46 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk

I know what you mean. I'm often asked if I can repair a TV or video but my reply is forget it, go and buy a new one, it will be cheaper! Unfortunately we now live in a throw away society and nothing is designed to be repaired anymore. Even if you find the fault you often can't get the parts. Give me valves any day!

Last year I bought a load of faulty inverters and repaired about 40 which I sold on Ebay. I think it probably cost me more to buy and repair them than I got back for them. The good thing is I now have a good selection of 12 and 24 volt inverters up to 2.5kW for my own use!

At least if you buy a new board it will prove the rest of your inverter is ok. You can then repair the old board at your leisure and I don't think that will be too difficult to do.

John

[ Parent ]



Re: Trace inverter fried (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by DanG on Thu Feb 3rd, 2005 at 08:16:22 AM MST
(User Info)

Saw a warning from an online trace .pdf manual yesterday & I remembered your post:

Accidental battery (+) to invertor (-) will blow EVERY output transistor.

Good luck finding your swinger...



Trace inverter fried | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 editorial)
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