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very large supercapacitor manufacturer


By jacquesm, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 02:50:10 PM MST
careful where you drop that wrench !

During my surfing rounds I found Tavrima, a canadian company that makes super capacitors.


These are slightly out of the ordinary, they're as big as small form oil drums (5 gallons) and they hold up to 45 KJ of energy !


I had never seen anything like this and wanted to share it with you because battery technology is pretty much unchanged since 1910 and this begins to look like a viable contender.


These stack up favourably against lead-acid cells in several respects, for one they don't have a sulfation issue, they don't care about environmental temperature as much and they don't have cycling issues. Also you can 'deep discharge' them all the way to 0 without damage.


A typical 12 V battery frame contains about 1 KWh, or 3600 KJ, these supercaps seems to store about 40 KJ, and are twice as large, so at face value it seems like we're a factor of (3600/40)*2=180 away from a useable system.


But, that's based on discharging the battery 100%, a 100 A for one hour discharge on a 100 Ah battery. In practice, if you do that it's battery murder, so you try to keep to about 20% of that, which reduces your 100 Ah battery's capacity to effectively 20Ah, so instead of a powerdensity difference of 1:180, it's more like a factor of 36, which seems to be very close to attainable in my lifetime, and no longer science fiction.


One of the more interesting applications they have on their homepage is that they power dragsters with these babies.


Aside from the energy density comparision metric there is also the price issue, lead-acid batteries are relatively cheap, and with these being on the leading edge I expect the price tag to totally knock you out, but I think this technology is starting to come of age.

very large supercapacitor manufacturer | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 08:46:16 AM MST
(User Info)

Don't even THINK of shorting one of these.  B-)



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 09:44:26 AM MST
(User Info)

 Yeah  especially follow proper procedure of disconnecting (ground cable first)
                   ( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]


Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by RatOmeter on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 09:46:17 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.rato.us

Ha!  No kidding. I think I'm gonna have nightmares about that.

I couldn't find much technical info on these, but don't caps and super caps have a significant self-discharge rate?

[ Parent ]



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by edy252 on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 12:09:35 PM MST
(User Info)

yes, they DO hold much more energy and can be discharged to 0 % but capacitors (if u draw their voltage as a funtion of time) u will find that it's an exponential decreasing function, so you'll need some way (which i have never heard off) to use them with an appliance that needs constant voltage....also.....their discharge is a function of the resistance connected to them........so good luck if anyone is gonna use them ....



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by edy252 on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 12:36:27 PM MST
(User Info)

the equation of discharging is:





[ Parent ]



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Peppyy on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 12:26:46 PM MST
(User Info)

According to their site...
"Our capacitors are designed to compliment batteries. There is no way any capacitor could rival a battery when it comes to energy density. Capacitors perform a hardening function resulting in much longer battery life. In a battery/capacitor system the energy density of capacitors is not as important as their efficiency, durability and cost. The synergy of the battery/capacitor storage system is a win - win solution."

I could see using these in applications where a large surge or startup current is needed or something along those lines. It would be nice if they came up with a cap that would store energy like a battery.

Cap'n, We need more dilithium crystals!

Pep



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by jacquesm (j@ww.com- I run a whitelist, add 'stjoes' to msg) on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 12:56:37 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.greenbits.com/

agreed, and it seems like the gap is still very large, that being said, a few years ago these very capacitors would have been unthinkable. All I see is the gap is shrinking, batteries are sitting ducks, rather than moving targets and caps and other technologies are on the move.
www.greenbits.com
[ Parent ]


Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 01:01:20 PM MST
(User Info)

I built a 15 farad 15 volt array out of surplus memory capacitors a while back.  They appear to be more efficient than batteries in that no over voltage is required to charge them.  If you have a large enough capacitance and you don't use a large percentage of the stored energy they become more comparable to the voltage ranges of a battery.  If you discharge half of the energy, the voltage drops to 3/4ths of the full charge voltage.  If you discharge only one fourth of the energy, the voltage is still over 85% of the starting value.  For a regular 12 volt lead acid battery, 11 volts is 86% of 12.6 volts.  The problems as I see it are the cost and the lower energy density requiring a much larger bank, especially if you are only going to partially discharge it.  Also some type of limiting device to prevent over voltage situations on the individual cells.  Rich Hagen
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'


Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 09:41:05 PM MST
(User Info)

Found a picture of the thing:


For all of its size, it can only power a couple of LED's brightly for a day or so.
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]


Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by jacquesm (j@ww.com- I run a whitelist, add 'stjoes' to msg) on Fri Jan 7th, 2005 at 09:20:00 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.greenbits.com/

that's pretty good Rich !


now you need to schale it about a factor of 1 Million and you'll be the first to power your house off caps :)

www.greenbits.com
[ Parent ]



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Fri Jan 7th, 2005 at 04:23:39 PM MST
(User Info)

I'm waiting for the energy density of these things to increase by a couple of orders of magnitude first, then I'll convert my electric car. :-)  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]


Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by thunderhead (mail me from my homepage!) on Mon Jan 10th, 2005 at 08:20:33 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.simon.richardson.net/mailme.htm

The advantages of these things are not to replace batteries.  As they point out, the wins are when you combine them with batteries.

The most likely technology for electric cars is lithium ion batteries.  These have a comparatively high internal resistance, which means that they cannot deliver high currents (and so high powers) efficiently.  Typical lithium ion batteries for traction don't want to be discharged at more than a 3C rate, which isn't very much when you're at the lights and some clown in an ICE car has an issue.

The answer is to put ultracapacitors to provide the ten seconds of decent current that enables you to cover the quarter-mile to the next set of lights.

This way you can get the 200+ mile range of lithium but still have the acceleration that any EV needs to have to compete in an ICE-dominated market.

[ Parent ]



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Jan 6th, 2005 at 01:33:19 PM MST
(User Info)

I just realized that these are ideal for storing the power from regenerative braking in an electronic-transmission car.

Phoey on superflywheels!

80 MPG here we come.



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by ghurd on Fri Jan 7th, 2005 at 08:37:58 AM MST
(User Info)

The 45KJ. Is that from 14v to 11v? Or 14v to 0v?  Seems like apples and oranges to compare numbers from one to the other.
G-



Re: very large supercapacitor manufacturer (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by juiced on Wed Jan 12th, 2005 at 11:46:24 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.juiced.ca

nice find.

   as for batteries being a sitting duck, i think they may be flapping about somewhat with the paper cells.

Canada's -Debatable- A.E./R.E Debate Site
News, discussions and debates!
www.juiced.ca



very large supercapacitor manufacturer | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)
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