Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Rants & Opinion - Diaries - Our Products
Basic Fundamentals


By iFred, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 05:47:30 PM MST
Faradays laws

Basic Fundamentals

Faraday's Law of Electromagnetic Induction

  1. If the flux linking a loop (or turn) varies as a function of time, a voltage is induced between its terminals
  2. The value of the induced voltage is proportional to the rate of change of flux
Here we can see that induced voltages are the result of very rapid changes of flux. The more rapid the changes occur the higher the induced voltage.

To induce large voltages you need a generator that has a rotor that spins rapidly, has significant magnets as the law suggests. The faster those magnets rotate and switch the flux in a coil, the more voltage will be induced into the coils, thus the higher the induced voltage.

Equation here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday's_law_of_induction

N=number of turns

DeltaOm=change of flux inside the coil

Deltat=the time interval during which the flux changes

How can a very slow turning generator produce such rapid changes in flux?

The secret lies in the diameter of the of a generator core size. The larger the core diameter the faster the magnets can produce rapid changes of flux induced into the coils. The more rapid the changes the higher the induced voltage as Faradays Law suggests.

This concept is called angular velocity to linear velocity exchange.
Which means;

With a constant angular velocity a larger diameter gives you a larger linear velocity at the circumference.  

Angular velocity is measured in rotations per second thus;
Rotations per second X the circumference (diameter X pi) = The linear velocity in seconds (or RPM's)

In essence the greater the length of the radius or size of the diameter the faster the magnets are moving if placed at the circumference.

Now Faraday being the smart guy that he was, also suggested that "it is easier to calculate the induced voltage with reference to the conductors, rather then with reference to the coil itself"

And another calculation pops out;
 E=BLv
 E = induced voltage (V)
 B = flux density (T)    
 L = active length of the conductor in the magnetic field (m)
 v = relative speed of the conductor (m/s)

What I want to point out here is that the "length of the conductor", plays a significant role in the induced voltage.

Notice: This is a single conductive wire, not a coil. The length of that conductor in the above equation is what is of prime importance. This means that the core (and rotor) must be "wide" to optimize the length of the conductor and thus the output. Also the equation states the "active length" of the conductor. I interpreted this to mean that the magnets must be long or as long as the conductor in order for the total conductive surface area of the wire to be active.

Interpretation; A wide core is a requirement. The magnets are as long as the wire, the wider the core the longer the magnet.

The calculation also states the flux density.. The stronger the magnetic flux the larger the output. Thus a very strong magnet is called for to induce maximum voltage.  

Basic Fundamentals | 38 comments (38 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by MountainMan (jp@jeffSPAMPREVENTIONpritchard.com) on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 02:10:37 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com

iFred,
Thanks!  I love seeing science up front and foremost in a practical forum such as this.  I think it is always good to take a step back from the "we always do it this way" tribal knowledge of a forum like this and look at the science behind it again.  Most of the "we always do it this way" came from the science, but over time, probably some of it gets skewed and misinterpreted etc.

I don't think I quite got the right understanding of what  you were trying to say with this part:
"Notice: This is a single conductive wire, not a coil. The length of that conductor in the above equation is what is of prime importance. This means that the core (and rotor) must be "wide" to optimize the length of the conductor and thus the output. Also the equation states the "active length" of the conductor. I interpreted this to mean that the magnets must be long or as long as the conductor in order for the total conductive surface area of the wire to be active.

Interpretation; A wide core is a requirement. The magnets are as long as the wire, the wider the core the longer the magnet."

By "active length", it seems to me we are referring to the part of the coil that the magnet passes over at 90 degrees, thus the tendency to make oval shaped coils to mimize the "wasted" copper at the short ends of the coil where the flux is not cutting at 90 degrees.  With such an elongated coil, I would think it prudent to have the dimension of the magnet that is parallel to the long side of the coils be approx the same length as the coils, minus the end parts of the coil.  Perhaps this is what you mean by the "core".  I take this all to mean that the radial length of the coil (i.e. the dimension measured parallel to the radius of the stator) should be as large as practical, but may be limited by the length of the magnets available.  I think it also means that a round coil is the "least" efficient shape for a coil.

As for the diameter of the stator, yes, I think it is interesting to note that even without increasing the number of magnets, you will get more voltage out of a larger diameter genny.  This property could be very useful for those working on VAWT gennys.  Probably a lot cheaper to double the diameter of the genny than to go to a dual rotor design with twice the magnets.

Thanks again or bringing science back into the picture.  I think we all benefit from doing that now and then.

jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 05:54:26 PM MST
(User Info)


This picture shows what I mean by a wide core as long as the magnetic path lenght.

Active lenght is interpreted as the "lenght of the wire in the magnetic field". Outside this there is no active field thus nothing happening. The conductor must be above or within the region of magnetic activity.

To awnser a "round coil is the "least" efficient shape for a coil", yes and no. At the moment it works, but this could change. We are consistantly seeking a better coil shape which would lead to better output, at the moment round and alongated is in. it meets all the primary conditions.

Yes, I too like the angular velocity to linear velocity exchange! And just think of the power of a slow moving vwat with a diameter of 2ft and lots of magnets and coils around the bottom!

Thanks MountainMan!

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 07:57:11 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

  iFred,  Nice job on the faraday post, quite interesting.   I might add that for each degree of angle in the wire under the magnets there is a decrease in output that coresponds to that angle.

  I think the larger diameter is a slight misconception.  I don't believe you have to go with a larger diameter to increase output.  Going to a larger diameter is more of a convienience.   What I mean by this is that it would be easier to add more magnets and less wire on a larger diameter than to work with a smaller machine.  But... I can be done with the smaller machine using the same rpm.  It's more convienient to use the extra "real estate" of a larger machine with more magnets.  

  Given the same magnets on 2 different discs,  12 poles on an 8" disc will give you better performance than the same 12 magnets on a 12 inch disc.  Even though the magnets on the 8" disc at 200 rpm are running 418 ft per min and the 12" disc is running 628 ft per min.  Given the same coil layout the flux change is the same no matter where you put the magnets at the same rpm.  Also you'll use a bunch more wire on the 12" disc which will lead to less performance. So the smaller disc will perform much better overall.  Now, as you said, lay out lots of magnets and lots of smaller coils then you'll gain in performance. Below shows the magnet discs of the 2500 watt machine I built some time ago using small magnets these are 10" discs...


The one below is a 48 volt 1kw unit built for a VAWT for a company in Canada.  It runs at 1.5 rpm per volt on a 12" disc.  Originally designed to be on a 10" disc but for convienience I built it on a 12" disc


So unless you really need the real estate there is no need to go bigger.  Look at Dans 17 ft machine built on a 16" diameter, low rpm great performance.  Still pretty small for the machine driving it ( I think anyway ).

.
 
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Cinosh07 (sylviec@m.csvdc.qc.ca) on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 09:30:17 PM MST
(User Info) none

Hello ED,

I like the way you work for your alternator.

what's the RPM for the 2500 watt version.
What's the size of the magnets you use.

Once again thanks for the wonderful contribution you give to this discution board.

Cinosh07 The French Canadian R/E guy
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 07:05:33 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

  The 2500 watt unit was actually a failure, it was supposed to make more like 4kw.  2500 watts occured at around 600 rpm.  The magnets were very small ( 1 x .5 x .125 ) and each coil had 2 turns of #15 wire.
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by monte350c on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 12:52:56 PM MST
(User Info)

There is always more than one way to skin a cat. Even an electrical one.

The formula for predicting the output of an alternator that I think came from Hugh, and has popped up periodically on this board:

N * A * R * B * P

Where:

N is number of turns of wire
A is the area of one magnet in sq. meters (sq " x .000645)
R is revolutions per second (RPM / 60)
B is flux in the air gap in Tesla (gauss/10,000)
P is the number of magnetic poles

I and several others have found this works out to a pretty good indicator of alternator performance.

Since every input in the formula is multiplied together, it makes sense that increasing ANY of them will result in more voltage.

For example, if you had a induction motor that you had just converted, and you wanted to double the output, you would have a few choices. One of them would be to double the area of each magnet. You could do this easily by taking another stator from the exact same type of motor, stacking them end-to-end, and doubling the length of the rotor. Same diameter, double the voltage.

Or, double the number of poles. BUT - if you want to maintain the same magnetic area per magnet, then the diameter is going to go up - just to give you someplace to put the magnets. If you leave the diameter the same then each magnet would be half the area as before, no net gain. Note that the diameter is only going up to allow a place for more magnets. Just increasing the diameter won't have any effect. I tried it.

Another approach is to look at the flux. By closing up the airgap there are BIG gains in performance available. Flux decreases by the square of the distance from the magnet so a little closer gives a lot more flux. It's probably easier to get really close in an induction conversion. Really big diameter rotors on tapered roller bearings will allow some rocking so really fine tolerances may not be possible.

Of course life is not always so easy. Doubling the magnetic area usually means you will increase the length of wire in the machine, increasing heat. And as George pointed out more voltage is not always as good as it seems. If you increased the number of turns to get the voltage up, you would be using thinner wire to fit it all in, which would exact a penalty in resistance and therefore heat.

So it's all a balancing act. There are a lot of alternators in my shop now of various designs. It's a huge amount of fun in any case.

Ted.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by finnsawyer on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 08:55:21 AM MST
(User Info)

The thing that you're not taking into account here is that voltage is only half the story.  The voltage induced in the loop causes current to flow in the loop.  This current is limited by the resistance.  To get maximum possible output power one would wish to minimize the loop's resistance.  This is accomplished by keeping the loop circular.  Hence, the use of circular magnets and coils keeps the alternator resistance as small as possible allowing more of the generated power to reach external circuitry.  The elongated magnet requires an elongated coil that will have more resistance than a circular coil.  Of course, we assume the total flux for both the circular and elongated magnets are the same.  While the statement of Faraday's Law is simple, application of it is not.  The physical constraints of structure means that the designer must consider many competing factors; not only resistance of the coils, but also maximizing the magnetic flux by reducing the flux path and air gaps and keeping flux leakage to a minimum (coils have length, magnetic field lines tend to spread).  As usual "the devil is in the details".

By the way, a transformer is very nearly an ideal application of Faraday's Law as there are no air gaps and the magnetic flux is essentially confined to the transformer core.  All the flux passes through all of the coils.  
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 08:20:18 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I tend to agree...  could be wrong, but I think somewhere in this design is a compromise between minimum resistance (roundish coils) and maximum voltage (almost perfectly triangular coils).  Either extreme will probably work fine and perfection would be hard to figure out...

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by finnsawyer on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 08:44:06 AM MST
(User Info)

Well, that's what engineering is all about.  In a manufacturing context it becomes an effort to meet the design specifications for the lowest cost.  For most of the people frequenting this site such issues are not of paramount importance.  Round coils over round magnets (or trapezoidal coils over trapezoidal magnets) will probably work fine.  For the individual that wants to push the envelope go for it, but be aware of all the design factors.  
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by dinges on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 10:55:18 PM MST
(User Info)

Hmm,

This sounds like a good idea for a graduating project; determine optimal coil geometry (&dimension?) for e.g. a round and a square magnet. Would need some theoretical work, plus some practical work verifying the theory. Anyone know a fool (err, I mean student) that we can put to work?

(but my guess is somewhere, sometime, someone has already done this research. Now, where/how to find his results...)

Peter,
The netherlands.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by finnsawyer on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 08:56:02 AM MST
(User Info)

The more one digs into this the hairier it gets.  We haven't even mentioned the effect of the induced current on the magnetic field, nor do I intend to.  I was thinking about a standard automotive type alternator.  Typically they can produce 60 amps at 15 volts (regulated).  Is the arrangement of windings in the stator as efficient as one can get?  That is, the lowest resistance for a given output voltage.  The coils still exist, but they are spread out.  While these alternators cut in (produce in excess of 12 volts) at a rpm from 800 to 1000, what would be the result of replacing the rotor with permanent magnets?  Of course, one could also rewind the stator using smaller wire.  There is, in fact, no reason why these things couldn't be manufactured if they proved useful for wind power.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 11:08:44 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

  I've built quite a few of them some time ago.   You can build them "as is" replacing the field coil rotor with a magnet rotor and it works well.   The cogging on them is a bit stiff for start up but by angling the magnets a bit (skewing) this can be reduced.   Also, you can take 2 or more stator cores and knock the pins out put them back together and make a new shaft and rotor for them and still use the same case ends making it longer and reduce the cut in.  You can stack as many as you want and lengthen the unit to make it perform to your needs.  Similar to the motor conversions Jerry and Zubbly.  Also you can use the same size wire to rewind them.... Just gave me an idea for a mini dual rotor unit!  Thanks!!!!
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by finnsawyer on Sat Nov 19th, 2005 at 08:35:19 AM MST
(User Info)

What were the cut-in RPMs for these units?  I think the community would be interested to know how they performed.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by willib (willibur at comcast dot net) on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 11:10:00 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.njwind.com/webcam.html#

finsawyer wrote
" We haven't even mentioned the effect of the induced current on the magnetic field, nor do I intend to."
In my experiments with round coils, Even using 18 coils per generator , produces a perfect sinwave .
So the effects of the induced current on surrounding coils certainly does not detract from the generators performance.I believe this is  because  of the symetry of using round coils and magnets.
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by monte350c on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 01:19:02 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Wil,

George said he wasn't going to discuss this but I can't resist.

You know if you wind a coil of wire, then pass an electrical current through it, you will have - an electromagnet!

So when your generator starts to make some power, and there's an electrical current flowing in each coil, every coil becomes an electromagnet.

From what I can make out, the flux coming out of the coils in the generator are opposite in polarity from the magnets passing by. (someone correct me if I'm wrong please)

Thus the more output (i.e. the more current that flows) from your alternator, the stronger the field will be from your now electromagnetic coils. Tending to limit the output power of the alternator...

Ted.


[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by finnsawyer on Sat Nov 19th, 2005 at 08:31:18 AM MST
(User Info)

There's also a shift in time phase.  The induced voltage is proportional to the time rate of change of the flux.  If the time dependence of the flux as seen by the coils is a sine wave (goes as SIN(wt), then the induced voltage and resulting current goes as COS(wt).  The magnetic field created by this current reacts with the magnets to create a force on the rotor that works against the applied force.  So, it takes energy in to get energy out.  No surprise there.  No free lunch.  Analysis of this situation gets pretty complicated, although I suspect one could find papers on it.  Not my area of interest.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by willib (willibur at comcast dot net) on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 11:23:24 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.njwind.com/webcam.html#

Hi all , I'm new here , but i love this forum . There is so much info here !!
Fred ,I like your answer on whether round coils are better or worse than , non round ones,
because the argument that the magnet dosnt cut the windings at 90 degrees , just isnt so.
I think i learned somewhere that as long as something  passes through the center of a circle ,that it cuts that circle perpindicular to the center.
In the  wikpedia link under  tangent properties it says.."A line drawn perpendicular to a tangent at the point of contact with a circle passes through the centre of the circle. "
translation :  a round magnet passing through the center of a round coil will allways cut each winding at 90 degrees..it has to.

I have been obsessed with building generators for  over two years now.Presently i am designing and building generators with round coils , and magnets in my spare time.Mainly because a round coil is simple to make and if you look at my uploaded files there are a couple of example generators.The 18 coil 24 magnet generator is particularly nice. i built two versions of that , one with 17 gage , and one with 20 gage , the 20 gage produced 25 watts into a 1 ohm resistor..it also charged a 12 V sealed lead acid battery with 15 V , but that was at the upper end of what i could crank by hand.
i've built tube generators (shakers)with springs on each end that produced hundreds of mA.The "rotor" was six or seven 1/2" neos crammed together in a line thus forceing the flux outward , perpendicular to the centerline of the magnets.I held them together with a copper tube hand rolled to the magnets outer diameter..i've also built a fixture for winding coils on the outer perimeter of the inside of a converted electric motor , with some of Ed's 1' x 1/2' x 1/8" neos mounted on the old rotor, that one worked fairly well but was really complicated , i gotta hand it to you guys that wind those things ..i think i need help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle#Tangent_properties
Link to the free for the using eMachine shop program
http://www.emachineshop.com/download/index.htm
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by BoneHead on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 08:20:23 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Willi,

Nice coils. Wish mine looked as nice...lol. Welcome.

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by willib (willibur at comcast dot net) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 10:39:15 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.njwind.com/webcam.html#

Thanks <:) i've uploaded the winder i used , the gloss is polyester resin.
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by MountainMan (jp@jeffSPAMPREVENTIONpritchard.com) on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 06:33:09 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com

iFred,
Yes, now that I see your picture I'm in complete agreement.

Regarding "round is bad", I meant truly round bad, elongated good.

jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 10:49:06 AM MST
(User Info)

Ed, Thanks for posting, as usual awesome work!! I remember a long time ago we where taught that bending a wire at 90 deg ceases emf oscillations for interference applications (transmission lines)? But if this statement was true then how could a square transformer produce maximum power output work? I guess I was trying to state that, I have tested square elongated coils without any issues, so not sure what your saying about angles on coils, care to elaborate?

On the other hand, diameter is important. for two reasons, first you require less wind speed for the same rpm's. If the magnets are moving faster across the surface of the coil due to more magnets and larger diameter then output power will increase.

A friend of mine just built a 5 kw unit using square (flat wire) coils and 18 inch disks. The power of this unit is hideous, you can arc weld with it. Short the phases and there is no way in hell that it moves. The second reason was as mentioned, more space to play.

finsawyer: I was only referencing Faraday's laws, thanks for the suggestions. Perhaps someday I'll sit down and write the rest of it.

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 12:24:22 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

  I don't remember the formula, was some time ago, but for every degree from 90 ( either way + or - ) you will decrease output.  So if the wire under the magnets is not straight (90 degrees from the path of rotation) you will decrease the output by that varying degree. (i.e. round coils, skewed coils etc.).

  On the diameter, what I'm saying is given a certain amount of magnets ( 12 in my example ) the smaller you can make it the more efficient your alternator will be.  Certainly adding more magnets on a larger diameter will increase output.   Increase anything in the variable's of NARBP*2 and you'll get an increase.  My basic point is you increase the diameter out of convienience ( adding more magnets, reducing coil size, fewer turns etc ).   The design is usually based on your output goal or materials on hand and you can achieve it using either a large or smaller diameter.  Of course it wouldn't be practical to design a 400 watt machine using a 4" diameter disc but it can be done quite effeciently.   As an example of small diameter machines take a look at Jerry's or Zubbly's motor conversions, I'm just guessing but I would bet the diameter of the magnet rotor's aren't much more than 6 inches and look at the output... pretty impressive.

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 02:34:55 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Ed. I appreciate your comments as always. I see where you are going with this, efficiency. Sure, without doubt, Jerry's and Zubbly's machines are very nice and highly efficient machines with excellent blade profiles, but look how fast they have to travel to do it. If this is the case, why not use a car alternator?  We are all making dual rotor machines because you could increase the diameter and decrease wind speed needed.  

I had a large argument with myself a year ago regarding this same issue, the net result is, build a single BMW or build many Honda scooter. LOL... Yes, if efficiency is your goal then build the BMW, however, if you have low wind speed, don't care and just want it to work nicely then build a crap load of Hondas cheap and easy with a larger rotor and lots of cheap magnets. And according to faradays law, the more magnets hitting the same coil the greater the output, thus the need for a larger disk. Thus efficiency is out the window. In my opinion, efficiency is not all that it is cracked up to be, but is something that we would all like to achieve every time, and some do it better then others. Others simple follow the rules of the game given to them. The above was written as a sort of open guide.
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 04:33:37 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

   Unfortunately, efficiency in an alternator for a wind turbine is a give and take.  If you design it to be at its peak efficiency in your average winds you'll end up getting the most out of it.  

    As another example of a small diameter single phase alternator.  Let's say you put a 48 inch magnet of 1 inch wide in a tube and would a coil of 29 turns around it.  A standard neodymium grade.   At 30 rpm it would start charging a 12 volt battery.  Kind of an exaduration but the actual diameter is only just over an inch and it only has 2 poles.  This could actually be built into a load structure for a VAWT.  I built a small experimental unit some time ago using a very small rectangular magnet inside a pvc tube and drove it from a magnetic disc with 12 poles.  It worked like a re-drive gearing at 6 to 1.  At 100 rpm the little alternator was actually running at 600 rpm inside the tube.  That single coil made an impressive output.  

   I work primarily with an 8 inch base, I've found I can get just about anything I want from them.  Granted it would take some doing to get the power of dan's 17 ft unit but it could be done, especially at higher charging voltages, 12 volt would be a real challenge...  But your talking to someone that believes just about anything is possible given the right circumstances and materials.... ;o)

   Trying is a waste of time !  If you don't believe me I can prove it!
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by zubbly on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 05:12:54 PM MST
(User Info) www.zubbly.com

hi iFred!

just want to clarify about induction conversions. i really wouldn't call them a high rpm machine. you can use the mutiple connections (1-2Y, and 1-2 delta) to basically suit most batt charging as well as use it for a higher voltage system for perhaps resistance heating. i think it is very rare to ever see one of my conversions doing in excess of 600 rpm. the 1 1/2hp conversion i am currently flying has done over 2kw in a storm wind. i think the fastest rpm i have seen it do is 650 rpm. i had custom wound this unit, and can make 26.3 volt ac at 70 rpm in the 1 star connection (obviously to soon and with no torque in the prop for a 12 volt application). i now run it in a 1 delta connection which gives me 13.1 volt at 70 rpm. still very slow but i actually find i get more from it in the long run harvesting the slower winds. if i was in a faster wind zone i would use a 2 delta connection.

the latest conversion i have done is a 3 hp 3 phase 230/460 volt motor with stock winding and the addition of 3 extra leads to also give me the delta configurations if i need them. it produces in the lathe-190vac 3 phase no load at 755 rpm. so you can see where the multiple connections come into play again to tailor the unit to your needs.

the original 7.5hp conversion i made did 242 volt at 600 rpm 3 phase and produced 4700 watt also at 600rpm.

i just needed to put forth this little bit of info so people do not get the idea that motor conversions are only high speed units as many seem to think. you can tailor them (with stock windings) to suit a wide variety of applications.

just curious, what is your definition of high speed? motor conversions come on line and charge much sooner than a stock car alternator would.

no argument intended, just wanted to state some fact and clear up some possible misconceptions.

have fun!
zubbly


[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 11:27:47 AM MST
(User Info)

Hey Zubbly, long time no talk too! I've been stuck in my lab thinking and experimenting, nice to hear from you again. I know exactly what your induction conversions are doing and how your hooking them up. My definition of medium speed would be anything around 350-500 rpms. Above 500-1200 rpms is high speed. Airx400- which i have played with, are in this range and are nothing more then car alts rewound for higher voltage, but because the blade is small and low profiled she's fast- unfortunately they are also inefficient. Car alts where made for 2000 rpms, I believe it was, unless you rewound them, plus being extremely inefficient.

I like the induction motor conversions, simple straight forward, higher voltage or as you stated, higher starting voltage, low to no cog in the ones I built anyways.

I guess it comes down to what I stated earlier, size of the rotor and wind speed does matter. If your rotor diameter is large, then you require less speed, your above statement proves this, your larger hp motors prove this, they have a larger rotor which is putting you around 500 rpms or less with full capacity output under load. no argument intended.
>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by willib (willibur at comcast dot net) on Sat Nov 19th, 2005 at 10:32:32 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.njwind.com/webcam.html#

iFred, i have some interesting data for your argument on larger rotor size vs cut in speed.

AC test on a single coil ( both w/a 1 ohm resistor load , same size magnets  same coil , different diameters )

dia. 6.700" /16 magnets            dia 10.000" /24 magnets

10V p-p  at  535 RPM                10Vp-p at   333 RPM

Interesting results huh??

I can only assume that at 333 rpm the angular velocity of 24 magnets hitting the coil ,is the same as 16 magnets hitting at 535 RPM !
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by willib (willibur at comcast dot net) on Sat Nov 19th, 2005 at 11:26:38 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.njwind.com/webcam.html#

thats

(535/60)* 6.7*Pi = 187 in/ sec   &    (333/60)*10*Pi = 174 in/sec

Very close..
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by willib (willibur at comcast dot net) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 06:24:48 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.njwind.com/webcam.html#

iFred i would love to hear more about the 5KW unit your friend built .
Imagine how much more tightly you could pack the coils with square ( flat wire)!
and where can i get some?? (grin)
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by iFred (ifred2006@yahoo.com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 11:30:10 AM MST
(User Info)

As far as I know, he got them from a welding machine transformer from a junk yard. It was either that or it was an old microwave oven transformer. Not sure which. I have seen them every from old large motors to welding machines.

>> all energy used to produce this comment or post came from solar and wind energy! It works!
[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by JW on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 12:52:09 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi iFred,

 Ya I have a transformer simular to what you guys are talking about(aboot for Canadian :0 )



 Heres some useful links,

 This one is probably most usefull for the disscussion at hand....

 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magint.html

 This is a real interesting page, with clickable links to calculators, just click the available links on this page too see what I mean.

 Also there is-

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations.

 This is probably what GeoM is TALKING ABOOT :) (Michigianer)

and these two that are usefull-

 Http://hyperphysicsphy-astr.gsu/hbase/magnetic/maspec.html#c5

Scroll to the bottom to see mhd and faraday's law, I find this most interesting.

 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.htm#c1

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by JW on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM MST
(User Info)

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/maspec.html#c5

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html#c1

[ Parent ]



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Shadow on Wed Nov 16th, 2005 at 07:23:39 PM MST
(User Info)

I love these discussions! I learn more reading and re-reading these kind of topics than alot of the others.If its argueing, its definatley constructive arguing and very informative to some of us learning.Its always good to hear the pros and cons from those who know.



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by tecker on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 05:28:43 AM MST
(User Info)


  The right angle field to coil position seems to be born out in the data that is evedent on the air cores and the motor conversions . It must also be an engineering trend in induction manufacturing hense the long straight core segments in motors and and comercial generators .Here's some other data I frequent for field interaction
Lorenz force laws

. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by tecker on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 04:47:51 PM MST
(User Info)

When the magnet is in the center of the core the potential drops to zero as the Spherical effect nulls the electron movement . You get peak electron movement when the
two fields in different direction move across the two legs of the coil .In the case of a round coil this is short in comparison to a coil with longer legs or in the case of a induction motor where the core segments polarize carrying the field deep into the coil
windings.

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by scoraigwind (magnet@scoraigwind.co.uk) on Sun Nov 20th, 2005 at 10:23:54 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk

I have been reading quite a bit of this thread and it seems to me that you make it much harder than you need to in most cases.

The way I work it out is to start with the fact that the average voltage induced in each coil is determined by the average rate of flux change through the coil.  If the coil can encompass all the flux from each magnet as it passes and you know the total area of the magnets and the flux density then you know all that you need to know.

Average voltage will be 2 times the total flux times the revs per second.  2 times, because the coils get the flux in both directions.  Or another way to explain that 2 is to say that a coil has 2 sides.

There are also some zones of lesser flux between the one pole and the next as you move around the circle.  the outer turns of the coils can pick up some of this extra flux in some cases - in others it tends to cancel because the turns are too large or too small to benefit from them.

The highest voltage will be induced in turns that are exactly as wide as the distance between magnet centres and as long as possible beyond the magnets so as to pick up stray flux at the ends.  The ideal coil would be one in which every turn was this shape, but in reality we are also governed by the resistance of the wire.  We could put a huge amont of very slender wires in and get any voltage we like - and you can do this just as well in an axial flux machine as in a converted motor, by the way.  I have produced hundreds of volts (where I wanted to) with axial flux machines.

So all you really need to know is the size, and number of the magnets, their flux density in this configuration, and the speed of rotation and you can work out the average voltage produced in one turn of wire.  The peak is usually about 1.56 times the mean.  REctifiers start to conduct and the machine cuts in when the peak voltage is far enough above battery voltage to overcome the doide drop.  So you can choose the cut in speed based on the number of turns in each coil and the number of coils in series and star etc..

The shape of the coil is something you can agonise over but it will not make a big difference.  The ideal coil would have straight radial legs (for an axial machine) or axial legs (for a radial machine).  However this is not the optimum path for getting the most voltage for the lowest resistance in the real world.  There are a lot of compromises to be made to get that optimum, but none of them make a lot of difference compared to the strength, number and size of the magnets in the rotor.  In radial machines with corse the optimum shape is often very noisy and so the coil legs are skewed to reduce cogging vibration.  This will result in some loss of performance but you need to do it for practical reasons.

Just a few thoughts...
Hugh Piggott http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk



Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by Aelric on Sun Nov 20th, 2005 at 07:56:47 PM MST
(User Info)

Thank you very much iFred, this is a great post.  I bookmarked it and am adding it to my hotlist :-)  I really enjoy it when we get posts like this to explain the equations in common english.  

[ Parent ]


Re: Basic Fundamentals (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by willib (willibur at comcast dot net) on Mon Nov 21st, 2005 at 08:22:42 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.njwind.com/webcam.html#

I have a question .
in a three phase setup,as the magnet goes through the center of the coil ,could the flux be directed tward the coil without cogging ?
I think it can with the right material..
i've been reading about Bizmuth in stop4stuff's site , apperently it can  deflect magnetic flux, so could a cone  of Bizmuth deflect the flux into the coil on an axial flux machine , without causing any cogging like steel does ??
below is a pic of what i mean.



this is a close up .



just wondering if anyone has tried this ?
and before this thread slips into oblivion i would like to say this has been a fun discussion.
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)



Basic Fundamentals | 38 comments (38 topical, 0 editorial)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board
· Old Otherpower Board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  231 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· magnet
· http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F araday's_law_of_induction
· Also by iFred

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2003 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!