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Predicting my big vawts future


By motorhead2, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 02:13:52 AM MST
Lay it on me

The blades are what i call a dead fish airfoil.They are 8ft longx 2ft wide and 6in thick.Starts in the slightest breeze without backing up.It spins at 60rpm in a10mph wind.Rotor and blades combined weigh 100lbs.Will she blow up or power the neighborhood.The rotor is also 8ft.Im still waiting for my magnets for my 5hp conversion.With the ease of startup im going to try 10;1 ratio on gen.120rpms in 20mph wind otherwise chained up.Two hands on the 1 1/8 shaft cant stop it.
Predicting my big vawts future | 21 comments (21 topical)

Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by windstuffnow on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 07:40:50 PM MST

   It would be easier if you posted some pictures of it...  I'm kind of visual and words don't paint a picture very well for me...

Sounds interesting

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by motorhead2 on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 09:27:18 PM MST

Ed thanks for your reply.You are the one that gave me this fun disease this spring.I learned alot from you.Thank you.Anywho,I would love to send a pic or drawing as soon as i figure out how,skipped out of typing class tooHa.The blades are shaped like a fish with the tail cut off and holding the fish by head.Good day fishing.I cut 4 profiles like that and strung them together with a1x4 and wrapped with trim coil.The rotor is 4ft of 2in tubing with the other 2ft clawed out 2ft from top and bottom.I couldnt believe it when i took the thin blades off and put these on.Its amazing what a wide profile blade does for these creatures.Once again thankyou.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by motorhead2 on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 06:39:46 PM MST

Ed whats the equation to calculate Betz for an8x8?I made a comment earlier that the rotor/blades weight was 100lbs and spun 100rpm in 20mph winds and it vanished.May be it was my mistake.It was in response to a vawt only getting 25%.Thank you.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by windstuffnow on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 07:28:51 PM MST

  Hi Mark,
    Betz is the theoretical maximum power any turbine can extract from the wind.  This limit is 59% of total.  For instance your turbine has a frontal area of 64 sq ft ( 8x8 ).  Say in a 20 mph wind with that area there is 2600 watts available flowing through your turbine.  Theoretically you can only capture 59% of that or 1535 watts.   That would be a pretty efficient machine but not likely.  Most HAWT's will run in the 35-40% of total range sometimes a bit higher.  VAWT's on the other hand, such as the Savonius will extract in the range of 18-25% with the exception of the Darrieus which is said to be around 40%.   All the others in between will vary from machine to machine.  Since yours is, what it sounds like, your design, then the actual efficiency will have to be determined when you have a way of extracting power from it.  So you could expect to see anywhere from 200 watts on the low end to 900 watts on the efficient end in a 20mph wind depending on your machine.  Every machine is different.

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by motorhead2 on Sun Nov 20, 2005 at 08:12:16 AM MST

Thanks Ed.Looks like i need an aneometer.Any suggestions on building or buying one.Thanks.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by windstuffnow on Sun Nov 20, 2005 at 01:48:42 PM MST

   For some simple cheap ones look at the Dwyer products ( 20 bux for a hand held 65 for the MarkII ).  Other handhelds all over the web, bike speedo's make great windspeed indicators with a bunch of extra features.  Check out Dan's easter egg aneometer.   Tons of ideas out there for just about any budget.
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by rotornuts on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 08:52:24 PM MST

I'm intriqed but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

Mike



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by joemac2005 on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 09:55:15 PM MST

Let's talk about wind-swept-area...

so 8 by 8 ... VAWT design, 25%   I'm pedicting 1000 watts at twenty mph windspeed.

This is an estimate and is based only on intuition. Best of luck and POST the PIX!

           - Joe



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by nothing to lose on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 06:05:35 AM MST

Dead fish air foil?

I was picturing some type of curvature there myself, you know how a fish always seems to bend to one side. Well at least the ones I caught have, not much of a fisherman so I have not caught many either.

Pictures would be good like others said, though I know the feeling not being able to get any at times. A good new camera is on my holiday gift list for ME.

WHen you say long, do you mean tall? trying to picture in my mind what it would look like. I haven't been much into VAWT mills though one was my very first plan I got side tracked into Hawt instead right away.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by motorhead2 on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 06:12:00 AM MST

yes sorry about that.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by motorhead2 on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 08:45:11 AM MST

The airfoil is shaped like Shockwinds but the tail has more of a curve.I think thats why it starts so easy.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by DanB on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 09:46:30 AM MST

Hopefully in your big vawts future it wont be featured here:

http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei.htm

or here: http://members.aol.com/fswemedien/ZZUnfalldatei_00_02.htm

(fun pages, I wish I could read them!)



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by motorhead2 on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 10:06:20 AM MST

Dan thanks for your reply.I think.Have you guys ever built or tested a vawt.I sense a little prejudice here.This is a great sight.Please be openminded with us Vawties.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Testing (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by wdyasq on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 10:26:42 AM MST

Motorhead2,

I have not and do not plan a large VAWT in the near future.  Until then, I will let the expurts at Sandia labs and such spend out tax monies (as the public has little control of government spending) chasing what has been a folly to this time.

There is a LOT of published data from our free-spending goobernment.  One would be well advised to obtain, read and digest what has been written on the VAWT.  This goes for the HAWT also. However, 'cookie receipe' HAWTs have and are being sucessfully built.

My thought is if they can't do it with millions, I doubt I can do it out of my expendable after tax dollars. That isn't prejudice, that is several things, practicality and the truth are in the mix.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by electrondady1 on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 10:33:02 AM MST

you've got it all wrong motorhead, danb loves vawts ,'cause you need twice as many mags to get the same power! he really likes that perpetual motion stuff too,
(tuition fees)
just joke'n dan! loved those disaster links,  a real hindenburg scene.
 oh! the humanity!

[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by motorhead2 on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 11:02:41 AM MST

Why would you need more mags to get the power?You would need to gear it.I think vawts can overcome this better than hawts.We'll see.Remember the Junkyard Wars show where the vawt ground more coffee than the hawt.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by DanB on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 11:47:47 AM MST

Hi Mark -
well - I'm a bit predjudiced for my own purposes, but I do find it all quite interesting!  I just posted those pages for the sake of humor (I was looking for a picture of a smashed VAWT and ran across those entertaining pages!)

I think its quite fun/interesting.  I would never suggest that anybody who needs power build a VAWT, because I dont know of any workable homebrew systems yet (perhaps Ed is getting close!).  There are lots of problems in my mind with it all that have not been overcome yet.  While they can certainly be workable, so far history has shown them not to be cost effective.  In my mind it's kind of like the choice of burning your diesel in a diesel engine....  or - burning it under a boiler to fire a steam engine.  VAWT's have complicated problems with them I think and they're just not cost effective yet.  Of course they can work though.

I think it's one thing to get one spinning nicely in the wind and making some power with it.  It's another to keep it up on a tower top working in a reliable way and controlling it in high winds.  If it's not on a tower... it's not going to work very well.  

That said - I think if its power you need and $/watt is an issue then you're crazy to build a vertical machine.  If you want to spend your time having fun and experimenting - and maybe trying to solve some of the problems (which like Ron said... millions have been spent there to very little avail) - then by all means go for it and I'm definitely watching all these projects and very interested.

[ Parent ]



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by motorhead2 on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 12:42:29 PM MST

Thanks Dan.I found that out how destructive these can be when I took the thin blades off and put the airfoils on.All I had was 2x4 rotor with 18in shelf brackets holding them in place.Maybe 12mph wind at most.That was the end of my test rotor.Ive got the rotor licked now.Speed control is a problem but,I think agood problem.Ill figure it out.In a40mph wind with no control I think I would trigger a earthquake in colorado.My first turbine was hawt and found out early on that it wouldnt with my landscape unless I put it up 80ft.That seems scarier yet.My crystal ball will clear up.Have fun guys.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by RP on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 06:22:26 PM MST

Try this:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2Ffswemedien%2FZZUnfalldatei.ht m&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Courtesy of Google

rp

[ Parent ]



Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by motorhead2 on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 07:13:38 PM MST

Cool pics.Im only dealing with 8x8 vawt here.Im sure if a hawt could cause that much damage I bet a vawt could do more more damage than that.
Mark
[ Parent ]


Re: Predicting my big vawts future (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by commanda on Sun Nov 20, 2005 at 07:29:40 PM MST

I quite like the look of these actually.

http://www.solwind.co.nz/tradewinds.htm

When I figure out how to get off-the-shelf pipe to match up with off-the shelf bearings for the central mechanical transmission, gonna build one.

Amanda



Predicting my big vawts future | 21 comments (21 topical)
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