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VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design
By MountainMan, Section Diaries Posted on Sun Nov 20, 2005 at 07:21:53 PM MST
Planning to build a scaled up Lenz2, but I'm going to want to make several...

...basically I'm going to want to wind up with a small wind farm on my property to supply the bulk of my off-grid power needs for an eventual large house/woodworking shop/mechanical shop. Going to need lots of power, and what I have learned so far makes it pretty apparent that I'm not going to get there with one big mill.
So, I'm figuring that I will scale up the design just to a point where it is still practical and easy to build - maybe around 8 feet by 8 feet...and then make a whole mess of them.
To that end, I want to choose parts for my design that are reasonably priced, but probably purchased new rather than scavenged from a junkyard, so I can easily go into limited production with the design.
One piece that I do plan to scavenge is used 14 inch sawblades for the back of the rotor. (probably a single rotor design) Hoping that this is a large enough rotor diameter to obviate the need of dual rotor.
I would like to invite some comment on motorcycle or automotive wheel bearing assemblies that can be purchased new from an autoparts store that might be apropriate for such an undertaking. I'm thinking this will be the primary "bought new" part of the assembly.
Need something that will handle maybe 100 pounds of VAWT sitting on top of it rotating a few hundred times per minute pretty much non-stop for many years. Is this too much for a motorcycle bearing to handle? If a motorcyle bearing is appropriate, please make recommendations on the specs and make/model etc.
If I need to go to a small car wheel bearing, and remembering you are talking to a software/electronics/photography nut, not a "wrench", what would you call the whole assembly I would need to buy to make a practical start at putting together the base of a VAWT? What are the individual pieces of that assembly called in official "car talk".
Also somebody mentioned a trailer hub in a recent post. I suppose this is also a candidate. Is it cheaper than the equivalent car parts, and is it easily obtainable from an auto parts store?
Another point to consider is that we are talking about a VAWT, where the alternator will be part of the base of the unit. Ideally, I'm thinking I would want something that...

can easily be mounted to a solid flat base of some sort

provides an attachment surface for the non-rotating stator just above that

provides for a rotating hub/arbor of some sort coming out of the middle of that which could easily be attached to the flat surface of the stator (14" saw blade)

A pre-made assembly that lends itself to that sort of a finished arangement with the minimum of additional home-made parts or re-milling, etc. would be preferred.
If it is basically just a wheel-hub assembly with the bearings hidden inside the hub, then the total outside diameter of the hub would need to be less than 9 inches, as I will be using 2 inch long magnets on my 14 inch rotor, meaning the active part of the stator could be a 15 inch disk, with radially arranged 3 inch coils (including the non-active end parts of the oval shaped coils) leaving room for an almost 9 inch hub to come up through the middle.
This seems like a simpler and sturdier arrangement than the alternative of having the hub spining beneath the stator, with a smaller diameter "axle" of some sort attached to the hub and coming up through the stator. That's why I'm hoping to find something with a smallish hub.
thanks,
jp

VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design | 45 comments (45 topical)

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by willib on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 01:19:54 AM MST

Why go Vawt , you havnt explained why?
No room , dont want to fly HAWTs ?
I have been into Vawts since i saw Ed's vawt on his site http://www.windstuffnow.com
but the problem with Vawts is the drag associated with the part that is not catching the wind ,been there done that..
i even built something very similar to Ed's machine along with the offset to keep the blades position pointing into the wind.. very complicated..i must admit it worked very well though..
how are you going to support these at the top?
it just seems to me that the propeller design is the way to go thats all.
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by electrondady1 on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 06:52:07 AM MST

mt.man, your asking for a final design that won't change , but most things like this evolve. 8x8 is kind of big for your first one, but if i had a blank sheet in front of me, here's what i'd do .
buy a heavy duty trailer hub
take it to a custom machine shop , tell them what you are going to do ,have them add an 8' pipe as an axel
on the axel beneath the hub have them weld up a + from stout angle iron to support your stator.
get them to form a tripod type support for the axel
get them to cut two rotors 24" in dia.with center hole and mounting holes
go to the bank get a second mortgae to but the magnets
dig a big hole in your yard.
you get the picture!

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by motorhead2 on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 03:58:10 PM MST

mt.man One luxury with vawt is that you can have the gen on the ground or in the basement where you can tinker with it.I welded a fan hub to the rotor and keyed the shaft.Then put 2 pillow bearings about a ft apart up there.One day I clamped the shaft so it wouldnt spin.Came home from work and it was spinning.I forgot to put the key in the shaft.Metal on metal ouch.
Mark
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by MountainMan on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 12:43:24 PM MST

willib,
My choice to go VAWT is based on a personal opinion not shared by the majority of the folks here. I find wind mills to be somewhat hideous. What they do is great, how they look, not so much.

For me, the lack of esthetics reaches a much higher order of magnitude when they are up on a tall tower. I'm pretty sure my distant neighbors would share that sentiment if I were to put up a tower right in the middle of their view.

In my location, there is plenty of good consistent wind right at the ground, as it rises up the western face of the mountain, right at me. It is no-doubt turbulent air that close to the ground. My understanding is that VAWTs deal with that better than HAWTs.

I also like the tendency toward less noise from VAWTs (due I guess mainly to the slower rotational speeds).

There are places on my property where I can place a row of medium sized VAWT's and have them get lots of wind, but be virtually invisible from the inhabited part of my land and not blocking anyone's view.

So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

best,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by willib on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 01:01:06 PM MST

lol , fair enough.
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by IntegEner on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 08:14:48 AM MST

Here is a photo of some windmills sold at a garden nursery here up in our mountains up on the high desert in heights from 8' to 20' on their wood towers. The public rules on esthetics and it is the 20 footers that sold out. IntegEner-W purchased one of the 15 foot towers sans rotor for mounting a different rotor and an energy producing unit on it and it has been located next to an industrial complex at our glider airport here. Even the whole group of them together in the photo is attractive.

You appear to be taking on a much bigger project than what it may seem to you to be and are neglecting some worthwhile ideas. My suggestion at this point is to buy a pocket wind meter like the Kestrel 1000, to be found on eBay, and tell us exactly what you find your "consistent" wind to be. It will give you a much better idea of what height you need and get you better support from others who have "been there".

Knucks
IntegEner-W
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by IntegEner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:42:23 AM MST

Perhaps worth mentioning is that these wooden towers can be made available fairly inexpensively without the "farm style" rotors on them and in various heights as seen in the pic. We have obtained one that is 15' tall as seen in the below images for testing, in anticipation of the possible program, out at the Mountain Meadows field with its plentiful wind. The legs are secured with 3' long lengths of steel rebar driven deep into the hard ground.

AVC
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by IntegEner on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 08:06:58 AM MST

On a positive note, seeing that you are in CA, why don't you ask for a copy of our proposal to the CEC under the standard EISG grant program and get with the "system" rather than going it on your own? Here is a "repeatable" offer on this:

"Hello. This is a standard note sent to others as well. A grant proposal was recently submitted to a state agency (the CEC in California) which included information about various wind turbine blade designs. In a competitive marketplace sometimes ideas that have merit can be especially welcome. A brief sketch of some of what is discussed within it can be found by a review of the website pages at www.integener.com.

"Upon request, it may be possible to send a copy of the 20 or so page grant proposal for more detailed information. What is of interest here is whether you would wish to support this work on an in-kind basis, technological advancements being possible."

Anthony Chessick
IntegEner-W
Tehachapi, CA
www.integener.com

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by windstuffnow on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 09:02:18 AM MST

Just a note: I don't mind if you build the Lenz turbine for fun, power production or any other power need as long as its for your own personal use, as well, I encourage it. If, however, you plan to manufacture and sell them then we should talk. There is a patent pending for the unit which is in progress.
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by MountainMan on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 12:34:11 PM MST

Hi Ed,
No plan of any sort of income from this venture. My 8.5 acres is off-grid, and connecting to grid would cost as much as building a very substantial RE system...so that's what I'm planning.

The only reason I want to build a repeatable design is that I will need several of them to supply all the power I will need.

I'm all for conservation when talking about burning fossil fuels to make power, but when I'm looking at all of my power being from "free" sources that don't pollute, I say the heck with conservation, just build more RE.

I'm only planning to build about 5 of them for my own private use here on the mountain.

best,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by motorhead2 on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 05:09:13 PM MST

Ed.I would like to patent my modified hbar when I get all the components in place.How hard and expensive is this?Thank you for your help.If your building a 8x8 dont try putting a axial flux underneath it.You must separate the gen from the shaft because these things that big have a temper.So do kids you just spank em and move on.
Mark
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by windstuffnow on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 07:32:26 PM MST

Motorhead, So far my experiences aren't what I would call fun. It's s dragged out slow and rediculous process. I bought a book and read about it somewhat ( check amazon.com ) If you use a patent attorney it will most likely cost you 3k or more. A patent search will cost around 475.00 or so, expensive but it's a first step you need to take. If you try to patent with out a search you may be rejected. If you do the search and find it is a patentable idea then you can follow through on the rest. There are other companies out there that will do the work for you for less cost but there is some fine print you should consider if you decide to go that route. They will do a search, patent it, and sell the idea to a manufacture. You will in turn get 15% of what ever they sell but you will inturn also have to pay the company 6% of your earnings. Royalties have their place, depending on your expectations, if they were selling hundreds of your product a week then you could make a reasonable amount of money without having to build the product yourself. On the otherhand, if you have a marketable product and can manufacture it yourself then you would make a considerable amount more. So there are headaches on either end, just depends on what you want from your device. I figure If I manufacture them and only sell a few a week then I'll still make more than what the royalties amount to. A lot to consider...
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by electrondady1 on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 08:20:06 AM MST

just a small addition to ed's patent info. i studied industrial design back in school and did patent searches for various projects as part of the learning process. if i recall correctly,patents need to be renewed every five or seven years to be viable.also, one must be prepared to defend your patent against unauthorised use.going into production , even in a modest way, would do a lot to establish you as the original creator.
all i'm saying is getting a patent is not like winning the lotery.there are some very large fish out there that are prepared to copy a design exactly and then fight it out in court for several decades.

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by MountainMan on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 12:52:16 PM MST

Can anybody out there provide me with some insight into the types and sizes of pre-manufactured bearing/hub units out there? I need to learn about what the various parts are called and their sizes and which parts of the assembly are purchasable at local car parts distributors.

thanks,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by willib on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 01:11:49 PM MST

some ppl on this site use a trailer hub & spindle assembly , this should work for your purpose.
If you go this route , JC whitney sells trailer hub & spindle assemblies for $36
but they dont show a pic of the spindle??
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Browse/tf-Browse/s-10101/showCustom-0/refId-600002440/N-111+10201 +600002440/c-10101
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by kitno455 on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 03:11:17 PM MST

mt-

thread with pics:
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/9/7/155628/5777

and my diary:
http://www.fieldlines.com/user/kitno455/diary

allan

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by MountainMan on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 04:36:14 PM MST

Hi Alan,
What a coincidence. While you were posting this, I was at AutoZone buying one that looks identicall. Did you wind up using this type, or did you bow to the pressure of the Audi or Caddilac crew?

A cute girl at the store helped me open a whole mess of boxes looking for one like this that had bolt holes on both "ends" of the bearings. Since my application is Vertical, I don't think I need to worry about any of it walking anywhere (fingers crossed).

Do you happen to know what type of a car it is from? We weren't able to cross reference it back to a car from the aftermarket numbers on the box.

thanks,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by wind4Reg on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 05:36:48 AM MST

Hey MountainMan, you might want to take a look at the front hub/bearing assembly from a Chevy Cavalier or a Pontiac Sunfire. Since these are front wheel drive and the hub and bearing is together in one unit and it provides a mounting point on the hub and has the bearing, plus it is splined already for the axle shaft/CV shaft. That means you don't have to do any welding to the hub assembly itself like you would have to on a trailer hub. This keeps the heat away from the bearing. I am planning on using this setup on my own VAWT. If the Sunfire hub doesn't look strong enough for the size of your turbine then go with one from a 4x4 truck. Best of luck with your project and let us know how it goes.
Reg.

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by hvirtane on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 12:02:26 PM MST

I think that your idea
is a good one.

You might build a couple
of prototypes of the wind
machines first. You might
make a 'Lenz2' turbine prototype
and a 'Picoturbine' prototype.

I think that you will
get a reasonable amount
of power from those machines.

In principle the efficiency
of Savonius turbines is
about 30% - 35% if you'll
use a correct shape.
Ed's Lenz2 might be even better.

We started to make a prototype
of 'Picoturbine 250' some
time ago, but the project
has not been finished yet.

I've myself planning for
a bit different VAWT,
but a working prototype
hasn't been made,
I've only made of
a plastic tube a model
to check out, how
easy it is to make
the correct shape.

In Europe car wheel hubs
are cheap as second hand.
Also new bearing sets
are cheap, for example
for Mercedes only 15 euro.
So I think that that a
car wheel hub is
a good way to make
the bearing.

- Hannu

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by windstuffnow on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 04:26:10 PM MST

The Pico turbine has a blade efficiency of around 18%. I built one of their "Pico250" many years back. It flew for about 4 years before I finally took it down ( still have it actually). The savonius is pretty poor for collecting electrical energy. I personally wouldnt build another one. It did make 250 watts at one point but it took a 40 mph wind to do it. The Lenz turbine ( 3ft x 4ft) will do 300 watts in a 32 mph wind with an inefficient alternator. Sorry if I seem a bit bias but it works very well and I'm quite proud of the machine. 3+ years tinkering with it, adapting changes, lots of thought, and many days(months) of frustration as well as a multitude of notebooks with calculations and designs... persistance won...
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by motorhead2 on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 05:18:29 PM MST

I think we should start a company together.Vawts are the only way for residential power.Were starting to see more interest already.Have fun and keep thinking.
Mark
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by hvirtane on Wed Nov 23, 2005 at 04:04:00 PM MST

Hell Ed,

'Picoturbine' you built sounds
too bad. Maybe the match
of the generator with the
turbine wasn't very good?

But you Lenz turbine
sounds really good.

It seems to to have
a big future.

I hope that you will soon
build even bigger
examples of that.

- Hannu

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by windstuffnow on Wed Nov 23, 2005 at 04:24:33 PM MST

Hi Hannu,
I have plans to build a larger one from some items I have laying around to see what kind of problems I run into. The materials I have are 3 large shipping drums which will work for a turbine about 6ft tall and 10ft in diameter. I'm not real happy with the idea of only 6ft tall but maybe I'll come up with something before I start building it. It has to be one of those "low budget" projects once again which should prove to be quite interesting.

The date and time is set for the Pro wind tunnel testing... Monday of next week at 10:30 am. I'm looking forward to playing with the Pro's and finding out the actual wing efficiency of the turbine. I have several idea's for improvements that I've been working towards but I want to know the actual output of the original with the exception of the minor improvements already in place.

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by Jdonnell on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:59:42 PM MST

Here are some similar designs to review--

http://windausenergy.com/

http://www.wind-sail.com/

http://www.windside.com/

http://www.windwandler.de/eng/index.html

Bil Decker - http://www.aerotecture.com/
Article: http://www.consciouschoice.com/2005/cc1808/windmain1808.html

Enjoyed the Thread!

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by Jdonnell on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 09:04:54 PM MST

Oh , this might be good for external lights -- gates .. etc..

http://www.absak.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/32_93_94/products_id/748

http://www.absak.com/pdf/DOLPHINspec.pdf

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by kitno455 on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 11:59:48 AM MST

the first thread was not mine, i just commented on it, so i dont know what car that was. you nead to read my thread pretty carefully though, but i will re-state it here, for posterity:

If you use an auto-derived hub that has a splined hole thru it for the outer CV, you simply MUST put something similar in the hole, with big washers on both ends. these joints are a simple press-fit (though admittedly a tight one), and will come apart under load. VAWT application is likely worse than hawt, due to the mechanical advantage they have over the bearing.

i used chevy s-10 4x4 front hubs in my experimental mill. it was only up on a short pole for a few days, however, so i cant give long term test results. I have used the same hub on cars for quite a few years, and have had no major problems. the 1990 and up full-size GM 4x4's use IFS, and are usually 6-bolt wheel flange. if i ever build a larger prop, that is what i would use.

allan

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by MountainMan on Wed Nov 23, 2005 at 02:33:44 PM MST

kitno,
It seems I just don't get it yet.

Looking at the hub shown in this post:
hub like the one I bought

If I were to use the bolt holes on one end of the assembly to bolt the thing down to a base of some sort, and use the bolt holes on the other end of the assembly to bolt on some sort of a bottom plate for the VAWT/alternator rotor, then all of the weight of the VAWT would be pushing down on the hub assembly, ostensibly holding it together.

In such a use, you would still expect it to come apart?

thanks,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by motorhead2 on Wed Nov 23, 2005 at 03:23:06 PM MST

Mtn man Maybe you should start with a small one first.Dont go 8x8 yet.How many blades are you planning to use?These are a different animal.
Mark
[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by kitno455 on Wed Nov 23, 2005 at 08:16:26 PM MST

yes. think of it this way, not only is gravity pushing down on the bearing, the wind is pushing sideways along the whole of the vawt. that is acting like a big lever, trying to pop the center right out of the joint.

remember, any mill makes power by slowing the wind, the bigger the mill, the more force it has to withstand. these bearings are quite strong, but they require this bolt in tension to hold them together against the kind of forces you will see with anything over a couple feet square. do NOT rely on the press-fit alone.

allan

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by MountainMan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:30:52 AM MST

Thanks to all who have commented so far.

It looks like I'm going to be taking back the hub assembly I bought this week. They had another one that had bolt holes for both the hub and the spindle, and no center shaft area. Completely sealed. I'm going to assume it does not suffer from the problem kitno mentioned with the first hub I bought. Main down side is that it costs $40 more than this one. No big deal. Seems a bit heavier duty than what I really would need.

Would still like to find a line on bought-new trailer hub/spindle assemblies. Other than online (where I can't play touchy feely with it and decide if I like it) any suggestions on where one might go shopping for something like this? The auto parts store people just kind of cocked their heads to one side and stood there with a dumb look on their face when I mentioned trailer hubs.

thanks,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by electrondady1 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:35:09 AM MST

i could give you a few stores up here in canada mt. man. but it wouldn't do you much good down there in california. the one ive got in my vise right now is man ufactured by a company called dexter model 8-91A
what about hone depoe?

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by DanB on Sat Nov 26, 2005 at 08:41:57 AM MST

Yes, thats the same part number I'm working with. I like that one because it's machined on both sides so we have two true surfaces to work with (not all hubs are). It also seems to be one of the most common/easy to find parts there is. Dexter 81-9A

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by electrondady1 on Sun Nov 27, 2005 at 09:35:38 AM MST

with the machined flat on the back side of the spindle it will be possible to attach the back rotor lower.if nothing else that should shorten the stator support rods /reduceing stator movement.

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by kitno455 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:19:30 PM MST

go to salvage yard and look around. find something that looks workable, and then go buy one new. most likely candidates are the rear hubs from any heavier front wheel drive vehicle, like a full-size gm from the 90's (buick lesabre/park ave, pontiac bonneville, caddy, etc) or a minivan. those should not have the splined drive hole.

allan

[ Parent ]

Re: VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by RP on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:07:24 PM MST

Find a farm supply type hardware store. TSC, Orscheln, etc. I don't know what you have in your area but I'm sure there's something like these.

These carry all kinds of parts for making and reparing trailers, etc.

[ Parent ]

Second attempt - New Hub (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by MountainMan on Fri Nov 25, 2005 at 03:09:59 PM MST

Well, on kitno's advice I took back the first one with the splined center hole. Not knowing of any junk yards in the area with a clerk as cute as "Star" at AutoZone, I decided to get the other one they had there. This is what the new hub looks like.

Who knew that clerk cuteness would become a relevant engineering criteria.
If anyone knows a reason why this won't work well for a VAWT, please speak now or wait and laugh later when it doesn't work.

thanks,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.

Re: Second attempt - New Hub (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by kitno455 on Fri Nov 25, 2005 at 03:22:25 PM MST

looks good. make really sure to use very good quality bolts to hold the flanges. they will be under significant tension and shear load. in fact, if you can move the bearing up, so that it is in the vertical center of the mill, that will reduce the load to almost pure shear.

allan

[ Parent ]

Re: Second attempt - New Hub (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by MountainMan on Fri Nov 25, 2005 at 06:17:35 PM MST

Once again, having never taken a shop class is biting me in the backside.

Where can one go to buy bolts of different quality? Home Repot only sells one quality of bolt, probably low quality. What kind of a store can you go to where you get a choice of paying more for a better bolt? I can't ever remember seeing that kind of selection at any other kind of hardware store either.

thanks,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.
[ Parent ]

Re: Second attempt - New Hub (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by ghurd on Sat Nov 26, 2005 at 06:08:39 AM MST

Bolts.
Try a real hardware store, where they wear blue jeans and T-shirts, and the only way you know they work there is when they say "Need help?"
"Got Grade 8 bolts?" should be your answer.
G-

[ Parent ]

Re: Second attempt - New Hub (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by nanotech on Sat Nov 26, 2005 at 09:21:48 PM MST

My father worked (when he was still alive) at a company called Tacoma Screw Products. They had every kind of nut, bolt, washer, and screw ever made. You can contact them at 1-800-562-8192 or you can browse thier site at http://www.tacomascrew.com/
__________________________________________
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru!
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolt primer (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by maker of toys on Sun Nov 27, 2005 at 01:40:55 AM MST

Mountain Man- Since you are in california, look to see if there's an OSH within striking distance- they stock Grade 8 as open stock. it's the gold-colored stuff. Often it's fine thread, too. . . . which may or may not be a problem for you.

generally speaking, the larger the number of lines on the head of the bolt, the higher the grade. (for the 'ordinary' sort of SAE thread zinc plated steel bolt; the sort of bolt we're concerned with here will have its lines in a star pattern. metric hardware will often have an actual numeral stamped on the head. when you start talking bolts from specific alloys, head markings (when present) get arcane in a hurry.)

common examples:

no lines: grade 2. really soft; may be acceptable for fishing weights or stationary sheetmetal work. Sometimes used as 'shear bolts' for farm machinery. Easy to overtorque. this is the typical grade of all-thread, wood screws, lag screws and carriage bolts. unmarked metric fall in this catagory.

two lines, usually forming a right angle: Stainless, usually 18-8, 303 or other free machining alloy, and useful for many of the same things grade 2 steel is used for. (though the bolts are probably stronger than that, I wouldn't trust a hardware store stainless bolt for anything with a cyclical load. I'd rather order something specific and have it come from a traceable source.) 303 is too tough to use as a shear bolt, but still easy to overtorque.

three lines: grade 5. general purpose, used for bolting vices to benches, motors to mounts, etc. Metric 8.8 is roughly equivilent. sometimes you will find lag screws of this grade; good quality machine screws may be in this grade range.

six lines: Grade 8. often has a golden zinc-chromate or cadmium plating instead of the silvery-blue zinc of other grades. Used for bolting down pickup beds, mounting engines and accessories, trailer hardware, etc. Metric 10.9 is roughly equivilent.

there are higher grades, but they are usually specified for specific purposes and might be brittle or otherwise unsuitable for RE purposes. an example is metric 12.9, which may be used for low-stress engine internals (holding the oil pump in place, etc.)

be sure and get the grade of nut that goes with the bolt; hardware stores typically stock grade 5 bolts and nuts; those that stock grade 8 will typically have nuts to go with.

It's not a case of 'Save the planet,' it's a case of 'Save the humans.'
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolt primer (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by MountainMan on Sun Nov 27, 2005 at 09:06:31 AM MST

Thanks nano and maker,
I've saved both or your info on bolts for frequent reference.

I remember an episode of CSI where the suspension of a bus came apart because the bus company was using cheap bolts. They used this same terminology "grade 8" in that show. Who knew you could actually learn something useful on Thursdays?

thanks,
jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolt primer (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by nanotech on Sun Nov 27, 2005 at 06:54:22 PM MST

Just one more reason to wish my father were still alive. I could have phoned him up with all the specifics of what the bolts would be used for (diameter of bolt circle, number of bolts, shear force expected, tensile force expected) and he would have told me in a matter of seconds what diameter, length, and strength of bolt you would need!!!

A bonus would have been that I could have gotten you said bolts for cost. Delivered!!

But alas, now al I can do is refer you..... :(
__________________________________________
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru!
[ Parent ]

Re: Second attempt - New Hub (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by willib on Fri Nov 25, 2005 at 03:35:44 PM MST

Hi Mtn Man ,
how much was it ?
what was it off of ?
does the clerk have a sister?
Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)
[ Parent ]

Re: Second attempt - New Hub (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by MountainMan on Fri Nov 25, 2005 at 03:50:45 PM MST

"how much was it ? " US$114 plus tax

"what was it off of ?" Still don't know. Maybe kitno or somebody else will recognize it?

"does the clerk have a sister?" No clue. Good chance I look like a creepy old bald guy to her anyway.

jp
MountainMan, Julian California
http://www.real-home-based-business-opportunity.com
My ultimate hobby project is to build a ten foot tall robot.
[ Parent ]

VAWT and Genny Repeatable Low Cost Design | 45 comments (45 topical)

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