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Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill


By ghurd, Section Wind
Posted on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 08:42:42 PM MST
Easy 3 phase, blades, and lights

This was a lot of fun.
No stress for anything to really need to work.
But it does!

It started as killing time with stray parts, and grew into a simple little mill that has potential for a nice paper and project about wind power, from permanent magnet power generation to blade design.

I assume a lot of web surfers come here looking for something like this.
Well, here it is!  Or here is one!



The 3 phase permanent magnet alternator is from a VCR.
Only the bottom plate was removed for the photo.
Most of these motors are held in with 3 screws from the top, and are very easy to remove.
The wires connecting the motors are unplugged.


The large disk on the front of the motor is probably held in place by magnets and a small plastic washer on the axle. Often the shaft can be pushed, removing the assembly as the washer slides down the shaft, but sometimes they need cut off.
Save the washer if it comes off easy.

There seems to be 2 common types of this motor.
The bad motor is subject to very strong eddy currents in the metal backing plate, and is not very usable because as the RPMs increase the drag increases to an extreme amount.


These motors are wired 3 phase star, meaning the 3 phases are connected together in one place, and each of the 3 phases have the other end going out of the motor.
An Ohm meter is needed to tell where the 3 motor output wires are located.
The 'good' motor in the photos has the common connections and output wires very easy to see and connect wires to.
The traces or conductors on the circuit boards were scraped away with a utility knife, just to be sure no power was being fed to the circuits.
The 'bad' motor had 3 holes drilled to get the wires out the rear.
Output wires are soldered to the ends of each phase.


This link by DanB has a nice drawing for 3 phase.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/9/11/84741/6758

Each phase has the same ohms reading.
This 'good' one is about 4 ohms.
From common to any output is 4 ohms.
From any output to any other output is 8 ohms.
From any common to any other common is about 0.4 ohms, but that is from the wires on the meter, and is almost the same as the ohm meter test lead to test lead.

Now seems like a good time to show the light wires.
Red LEDs light quite easy, and I recommend only red LEDs.
LEDs only pass current or light in 1 direction, but the alternator makes current back and forth (Alternating Current), so each section needs a pair of LEDs conected backwards from each other. The resistor is to limit current so the LEDs do not burn out, but they will have very little effect on the LEDs lighting up.
LEDs also have the advantage of not conducting any current until they reach a certain voltage, and that helps get the windmill turning before there is a load dragging the speed lower.
A regular light bulb will result in very poor, if any, operation. It must be RED LEDs.

I can not get a decent photo of the LEDs lighting.



It can be fancy or simple, but the wires can not touch each other where they shouldn't.



After the soldering is done the large disk with the magnet ring is replaced and a quick spin of the shaft should light the LEDs!

Wooden rulers make simple blades.
Part of the angles are ready to use!
I removed the metal strip, marked and cut off 3/16" along that side, from 3 and 1/2" to the end.
The blades are sanded for a trailing and leading edge.
A bench mounted sander will make things faster and easier.

The root, or center, is not changed.
The root angle is needed later for fastening to the hub.




A hub holds the blades together and on the front of the alternator.
It is not a motor any more!
This is a donut of wood 3/4" thick.  Use smooth good wood. The chip board in the photo is not a great idea later. The center hole is as close to the pulley diameter as possible.
A set of hole saws helps make the hub easier.
The hub is marked with 3 lines 60 degress apart.  Each line is marked twice and small holes drilled for screws that will hold the blades.  The blades are marked and drilled with a bit that is a little larger than the screw threads.
Now the blades can be attached to the hub.
The more accurate everything is done the better.


The hub should now fit over the alternator, and the blades should look something like this.


Some rulers have a lower or higher angle than others.
This set of blades has 2 layers of a business card under one side of each blade to increase the angle as viewed from the end. About 8 degrees seems like a good angle.
After the blade angles are adjusted if they needed it, a bit of wood glue is a good idea.

Next is holding it all together.
This shows a main piece of wood with everything attached.

The center is drilled for a 5/16" bolt about 3-1/2" long. The bolt is placed in the hole, then a washer (so it turns smooth), then a tight nut.
Next, another nut is screwed half way up the bolt, the end of the bolt, on the side, was smacked with a hammer to badly damage the last 3 or 4 threads at the very end, and the second nut was screwed toward the end until it is firmly held in place by the damaged threads.

Then the alternator was screwed to the base.
A suitable tail and tail boom were assembled from scrap paneling and moulding, and attached.



Where are the blades?

A good quality double sided foam tape holds the hub to the magnet rotor and shaft.
That is why wood is better than chip board... nothing seems to stick very well to chip board, and chip board is damaged by water sooner.
The blade assembly is slid back into the alternator.

Blade balancing.
One side will probably come to the top, again and again, after a few slow spins. The top is the lightest side and a little extra weight to that side will help the windmill to start turning much easier.
A rubber band around the hub, holding a couple washers or maybe a nut, should show how much weight is needed and where. The weights can then be screwed to the hub.
Don't rely on a rubber band to hold any weights, because it will not!

This 'tower' is a section of 1/2" metal conduit.
The photos show the 1/2" conduit inside a piece of 1" copper at the bottom because that is one of my test towers.
The windmill nuts and bolt is simply placed in the conduit.



A few notes...

This windmill can make about 8 or 9 volts AC per phase under a load of about 25ma when spun by a flick of the fingers. I have no idea the RPM at that time.

These LEDs were placed in a half clear plastic tube in the first photo. The whole thing lights up very nice on a dark windy night.

Only -RED- LEDs!  
Red colored plastic red LEDs are hard to see light up in day light.
"Water clear" red LEDs show up when lit the easiest, by far, because as soon as they light they turn red!

The blades could be a little shorter, maybe about 10" each, or even 9" for this particular alternator. Then the windmill would spin a little faster and the LEDs would light up sooner.
This particular windmill needs about 14 mile per hour wind, steady, not gusting, to light the LEDs with the 12" each blades.
Different alternators will act different.

The blades do not spin very fast at all in front of a fan. The air is too turblent. They work far better outside.
These blades could surely be improved upon, but these are easy to make, work well, and have a decent airfoil for a school paper.

It is very hard (I can not do it at all) to light the LEDs by hand spinning the shaft after the blades are attached. The LEDs light very easy without any blades.
A school project might want to have a alternator for the windmill, and one to light the LEDs by hand.  Just so everyone can see it light up!

Accurate blade placement and making all the blades the same is important, it seems quite important for a decent balance. Good balance is important for the windmill to start turning in a low breeze.

Danger!  These blades get turning very fast. A blade that flies from the hub, or hits a person will hurt, and could cause injury.
Be safe!

I will try to follow here for any questions.

Any simple to do improvements are appreciated.
Or any thoughts in general.

Please, do post any results if you try it!

G-

P.S. PhotoshopCS and msPaint. That's got to be a first!  :)

Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#1)
by Bruce S (bruce(dot)stahl <at>gmail (dot)(com)) on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 02:22:58 PM MST
(User Info)

G-
Very nicely done.
Thank you for the Inspiration, now I have to go hide the rulers from our daughter <:_).
This help make something worth while once those old VCR/VCP start tearing up tapes.
PS. the loader motor on these are normally DC, which makes good Solar powered fans.
I have an old VCP that was on the floor when the basement got flooded that will be perfect to try this with.
I think I'd like to try making small sail blades to use with this setup.

Cheers!

Bruce S



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#2)
by Experimental (harogate@whidbey.com(no spam)) on Fri Nov 25th, 2005 at 04:02:13 PM MST
(User Info)

    Really neat Gurd,
    And I,m wondering if this will wind up, lighting up a camping area, around a tent -- next to a fishing lake next summer!!???
    Next thought I had -- has your wife been looking for her missing rulers yet ??
    My best to you, Bill H....



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#4)
by ghurd on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 07:30:29 AM MST
(User Info)

Bought all the 27 cent each rulers just for this. Many more than show in the photos... just in case.
Thought it would be easier to understand the photos, and work better if they are all identicial.

The 'Bad' style motor has GREAT looking coils for hard drive magnets.
If I can just figure out how to get them off that steel plate, they will find a home in a teeny-tiny 8/6 dual rotor, for camping.
That's designed super simple too, except for the coils.
G-


[ Parent ]



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#10)
by dinges on Mon Nov 28th, 2005 at 07:09:28 PM MST
(User Info)

Ghurd,

If you look at the thread 'my projects so far (long, with pictures)', by me, Dinges, you'll notice the very same 6 coils that you have difficulty removing.

I have 'di-sected' many a VCR, and recently have started saving these coils. Perhaps one day, I'll make a tiny generator too with them. Mine were mounted on a PCB; not very easy to get off, but possible if you use care and take your time. On some coils, one turn (usually on the inside) has gotten loose; in that case, just cut off the wire; your coil will end up one turn smaller than the others, no problem.

Have saved the bearing assemblies of these VCR motors too (have started saving them way before I started saving coils...). They should make it easier to complete the mechanicals of the generator; I have thought about using the entire PCB, like you do, for a generator. Doesn't look very professional, but probably works fine.

Glad to see you & I have got the same idea on recovering those coils. BTW, I notice lots of things on this board that make me think 'hey, I had the same idea too!'. Funny eh?

Hmm... Your talking on the subject has given me new inspiration; will make some sketches & calcs on such a tiny generator ASAP. Will be fun, though not very useful. I have some round NdFeB-magnets (bought cheaply at a ham-fest) of 14mm diameter; they would be fine for this purpose. For a rotorplate, I could probably use the original rotor (the flat plate with axle pressed into it). Double rotor design, of course; a mini-version of Hugh's generators.

Off-topic: who invented the axial-flux generator/its fitness for wind-energy? Was it Hugh P., or is he the one who popularised the idea?

Do you have any ideas about the number of turns? Tried counting them (yeah...), but no succes. I could unwind a coil, but then I'd have only 5 left...

Like your idea about the rulers too, BTW!

Peter,
The Netherlands.

[ Parent ]



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#11)
by ghurd on Tue Nov 29th, 2005 at 07:04:27 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Peter,

The 'bad' motor coils from the one in the photo are (about) 9 thick x 16 wide, or 144 turns per coil, about 5mm thick.
The multi-pole magnet is about 4mm thick, and MUCH stronger and with greater area than the other style.
They are mounted to a solid 1mm plate, along with all rest of the circuits.

My next plan,
if the coils can be removed, is a dual rotor with 2 of the same magnets, or maybe HD magnets, mounted on speaker plates (thanks Jerry!).  The speaker plates will be drilled and threaded for all-thread shaft, and a set screw will be added.
The air gap and magnet disks will be adjusted by turning the disks so the magnets line up, then tighten the set screw.
There is no need for jack screws from disk to disk!

That should allow for maximum area in the center, and use of common bearings.
Center area and finding suitable bearings are always a major problem for me.

All-thread is long bolt, 150mm up to 3 meters, with no head, a common product in the US.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Like this, but the speaker plate (magnet disk) hole is simply drilled and threaded.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/10/4/22201/3047

G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#3)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 12:24:38 AM MST
(User Info)

Thats a nice post for a simple turbine made from common components that can be built in short order by almost anyone.  Well done.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'


Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#6)
by ghurd on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 05:02:32 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Rich.
I have a fast set of 12" CNC blades I'll try on there soon.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#5)
by willib (willibur at comcast dot net) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 08:45:07 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.njwind.com/webcam.html#

nice job ghurd,
i think this fits in your catagory of inexpensive science projects.
i made this cool looking turbine out of a bicycle rear wheel with the blades made from  horizontal blinds hot glued to the spokes
This is the back.
it has a surprising amount of torque
it's built on a 16 1/2 " wheel




.
.
.

this is the front with a motor i rewound hooked to the bicycle drive sprocket.



Carpe Ventum (seize the wind)



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#7)
by ADMIN (info74 at otherpower.com) on Sat Nov 26th, 2005 at 09:16:26 PM MST
(User Info)

Cool little turbine!
Can I reprint your article on otherpower.com, and also as a followup to my article last month in the Energy Self Sufficiency Newsletter?
ADMIN



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#8)
by ghurd on Sun Nov 27th, 2005 at 07:54:06 AM MST
(User Info)

Sure!

Not sure what you want for file size, but my wife says I "messed up" re-working the jpgs.  She does that kind of thing at work, so she kind of wants to re-do the jpgs for better quality.

I have some more photos of in between steps, too. Might make something a little clearer. VCR with motor from the top. Blades and magnet disk, from the rear, not on the mill.

And I left out a couple sentences like "Get straight, untwisted rulers", "The yaw washer is important", stuff like that.

Do you still have my email?

G-


[ Parent ]



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (4.00 / 1) (#9)
by ADMIN (info74 at otherpower.com) on Mon Nov 28th, 2005 at 02:17:36 PM MST
(User Info)

I do have your email. I'll get in touch shortly, thanks.

ADMIN

Always encourage kids to experiment with science!

[ Parent ]



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (Update) (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by ghurd on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 at 02:09:29 PM MST
(User Info)

It seems tougher than I expected.  I was waiting for the blades to fail. About 12 weeks of pretty harsh weather had very little effect on the blades.
So I gave up waiting for a failure and just slid out the blade & hub assembly and removed 2" from each blade. More effort was spent on better balancing this time.

As expected, it takes a little more wind to start turning.  
Once it is turning, it turns MUCH faster than the 25~30% I expected it would. Possibly double the RPMs at the same wind speed.

Now I expect the LEDs to light up about the same time my wind gauge will register (6mph).

The 12" blades may be better set at 5 or 6 degrees?

Big Silly Fun!
G-



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by gregted (gregted@tpg.com.au) on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 06:52:10 AM MST
(User Info)

Nice one Ghurd...

I had to try this one and it turned out fine. My alternators are a bit different than yours but I simply traced the wires from the coils to the circuit board and soldered three wires on to them and then wired up the leds as stated.

Works fine but I noticed that two of the leds do not light up with the others. I suspected faulty leds, but they light up individualy from the wires from the alternator.

One thing I did notice was one of the leds seemed to light up when the wind speed was very fast, but it only lit up for a second and the other one was still out.

Curious but still a working wind generator from spare parts.

The next alteration will be to use some clear rulers and different coloured leds.

At Dick Smith Electronics here in Oz, they have multi-coloured leds as in red/green and red/blue and also three coloured ones that have three legs.

Might be an interesting effect.

Another idea might be a simple railway crossing circuit aka.. flashing alternating leds or simply flashing leds of different colours.

Question.... How hamy leds will these type of gens be able to support??

Great project for a rainy ( windy?? ) day!!

If I can build it, anyone can ;)

Greg.



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by ghurd on Thu Feb 16th, 2006 at 05:54:00 PM MST
(User Info)

Thats different Greg!
My first thought maybe a bad coil or solder connection at the resistor.  But both LEDs should light if one does.
The only thing I can think of right now is re-solder that pair and resistor.

Throwing out a few quick ideas...
Would the set not working be yellow, green or blue, while the others are red?
Red lights first. Yellow next, then green, blue and white.

Possibly the pair operating poorly are not reverse connected? That could have some strange effects, but they should still light.

The first thing after resoldering I would try is changing those LEDs and their resistor.

The frequency of these things is very high. I would not expect a 2 color LED to show 2 colors when it is up to full speed. More like both colors at the same time.

I believe faster blades, like short PVC Zub-Woofer style, to generate a much higher voltage. Maybe 4" dia pipe, and 3 at 18" diameter blades. Those really spin fast.  Then 2 series LEDs replace each single LED.  I'll let you do the metric changes.

I don't think there is enough potential for current flow to operate LEDs in parallel. At least not very well. These motors are better for voltage than amps.

I will keep thinking. Let me know what was wrong.

Big Fun with little parts.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by ghurd on Fri Mar 10th, 2006 at 07:15:48 AM MST
(User Info)

Big long steady winds.  It was lighted all night, so got a photo.







Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by IntegEner (mail@int.......com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:30:39 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.integener.com

The recent comment added here with the photo of the red LED light lighting gives me hope that this question might be seen. If you, Mr. GHURD, have one of these "good" VCR motors, would you wish to part with it with compensation for your trouble? I can pay via PayPal if you have it or by sending a check if you don't. We have here a small 18" metal bladed rotator that spins fast as a spinner and can be fit up with something like this if this makes any sense.

Anthony Chessick
IntegEner-W
www.integener.com



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by ghurd on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 06:29:25 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Anthony,
Recently got 2 more VCRs, but did not open them yet. They are not here.
I am trying to find 1 more 'bad' motor for the coils. My luck will be that they are both 'good'.
The shaft on these things is small, maybe 1/8"?  But the 'magnet rotor(?)' is right against the bearing, so the shaft is not hanging out to bend. Either way, these are not heavy duty.

I will let you know when they get opened up.
Shipping via USPS 21331-C G.H.B.?
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by IntegEner (mail@int.......com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 08:34:34 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.integener.com

It lit the light. That's all that matters at the moment. AVC, www.integener.com

[ Parent ]


Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by ghurd on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 11:30:54 AM MST
(User Info)

Put a set of Rich's 12" blades on it.

Wow!







Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by guruji (andyborg@nextgen.net.mt) on Mon Nov 27th, 2006 at 03:11:53 PM MST
(User Info) http://andyborg.tripod.com

Hi Ghurd very nice vcr windmill.I have one vcr motor and have 4 wires coming out.I connected the inside two but only gave 3v ac mostly.Any help please would be very obliged?.What should I do to increase output?.
Thanks.



Re: Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by ghurd on Mon Nov 27th, 2006 at 09:32:06 PM MST
(User Info)

Well, 3 to 5VAC is about the top of the Normal Condition volts I have seen under the smallest load.
Output (watts) will increase by connecting it in star. Volts may go up a hair.
After rectification, using Schottky diodes, the power is still only good enough for 2 rechargeable AAs.
Its been a while, but I think the rectified open volts past 14VDC at high speeds.
The ruler blades after being cut down to 8", in a strong wind, are Very Fast!

These make for a neat light show or learning experience, but they can't get the volts and a couple milliamps for much else. Unless the wind is very fast.
Maybe, one night it was doing about 10V at 75ma (guessing), but the wind was crazy that night.

I am sure there are many versions of these motors. Some must work better than others.
G-

[ Parent ]



Nice Science Fair Style Mini Mill | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial)
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