Well, then you really don't conceive what the problem may be.  Here, many of us are into reality.  Facts are it takes a lot of money to 'Go RE'.  Those who have at times will be wasteful..... When the batteries are full, the sun is shining and the windmill is producing more power than is needed. It is expensive to store electricity too.

I'll take the area of Texas I am in for an example. And, since I live a 400sf, well-insulated,  minimalist place I will use it as an example.  In the summer, the temperatures go to well over 100F and only drop to 85F or so at night.  It is all my small 8,000BTU window AC can do to keep it to 80F - and that takes 24kWh a day.  Add in a refrigferator and freezer, a computer and a few CF lights and 1000kWh a month is easy to attain.  To do this with solar, not including batteries is near the $10,000 range.  

As I live in a town, the ~6-8m Mill on a 120' tower is out of the question.  I wonder what the liability insurance on a 20 - 25 foot diameter mill in a town would be.... But, the tower would probably cost $6-10,000.

Now, if I built a new, solar tempered home I'd bet it would use about half the energy - or less and acheive a better enviornment.  I could move West about 100 miles and pickup maybe 5mph average windspeed and a negligable amount more sun time. This small move would make it more practical to invest in more wind than solar.  However, a larger battery bank would be needed as Solar is considerably more consistant than wind even in the tropics.

While it would be nice to be able to just throw out a "PV tarp" and charge up your SUV..... OR, just have a Solar SUV and park it outside and power your entire energy wasting old house. - - - -  It ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.  There is only a certain amount of energy falling on the earth at any one point from the sun.  The winds that are generated are a collection of the heating and cooling of the sun and the rotation of the earth.  This too is a limited and finate amount one can grab due to limitations of the plot one owns and legal issues.

Just the view from here.  Where I have lived off-grid. And long to get back off it.

This also helps keep the mind busy, which has proven in a great number of studies to help a person stay mentally/physically healthy.

Keep reading , but read from a different angle.

There is no such thing as FREE.

Sorry, sir, but I digress.

May I inquire what planet you live on? Oh Kulliforneeya where they didn't want power plants but screamed when they had to pay a premium for outsourced power. Explains a lot to this conservation minded daily RE user. A LOT easier to conserve a KWH of power than produce it. Join the reality based world and become part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

Well, perhaps, after you attain some minor experience in RE you can revisit this thread and relate your reality then.

'Nuff Said.

Just my Rant and personal opinions.

T

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it

I've noticed an interesting sentiment here and I'm wondering if it is endemic to the people who get interested in RE, or if it is actually born from the practice of RE.

Conserve, conserve, conserve.  Seems to be a mantra around here.  I find it quite unexpected.  I find it quite naive.  I find it quite useless on this insane planet.<<<

Consider yourself shot, messenger.

Here's an idea:

Contract a terminal illness but don't die from it. Then go on social security for four years, but since you didn't die, you still have to pay all your bills off of the SS check. Since you're disabled from the disease you had, you'll be unable to boost your income no matter how hard you try short of robbing a bank and getting away with it. That will be unlikely though.

Then sit and watch as your electric bill and fuel cost climbs until you're paying it with grocery money which was kind of skimpy to begin with.

When you get to that point, then start recording for us how naive you are becoming by screaming conserve, conserve, conserve. Please report back at that time.

Well, take that mentality and multiply it by 200 and you have the entire staff at the place where I work.  Myself and only one other person drive cars NOT made in Detroit, if you get my drift.  And the other guy only drives his Honda Accord because it was free to him.  :(

I've been trying to preach the RE lifestyle to these neanderthals, but it's falling on deaf ears.  The whole idea that gasp turning off those lights in the plant when we leave could actually save the company money gets you funny looks.  The whole idea that buying a complete other fuel efficient car, insuring it and maintaining it whilst still keeping your "manly" pickup truck would pay for the stupid car in fuel savings just completely escapes them.

So, I figured I'd sell them on the only way I could.  Figure out some way to power an internal combustion engine vehicle on RE.  This comes down to burning electrolysis made hydrogen.  So, put up a bunch of small windmills all tied into thier own water canisters boiling off the hydrogen into a storage medium, then pump it into the metal hydride canisters in the vehicle.

Now, the way to get the rednecks' attention?  When the gasoline prices skyrocket back up again (not if, when), I'd love to drive into work (after a 45 mile one way trip) in the biggest, most gas guzzling TANK of a 454 V-8 4X4 Suburban!!  And when they all ask me how I can afford to drive that thing when gas is up to $5.00 a gallon, I'll happily smile and tell them it no longer costs me a penny to drive it!!  :)

Sometimes to get stagnant peoples' attention you need a BIG display.  Most RE items don't really make a very big impression, unless you're talking about a 60' HAWT turbine.  Trying to "sell" a redneck on a solar system would be next to impossible.  The returns on the investment are not immediately tangible.  Trying to "sell" a redneck on the idea of an iddy biddy windmill providing all the 'lectricity for his house just goes right over his head.  But put it in terms he can immediately grasp (like driving his big 'ol pickup truck and not have to pay for gas, read: more beer money) and he'll jump right on board!!

My opinion, which may sound a bit harsh: My energy use is pretty much taken care of by my own power systems--wind, solar PV, and solar thermal. If gasoline prices hit $10 a gallon, if oil and gas for heating homes goes up 2000%, well, you should have started paying attention to reality years ago, folks! I'll be fine, though I won't drive to town very much at that price. I took care of my energy supply years ago, by moving off-grid, and I scraped it all together for cheap by buying surplus. My next move will be more solar and wind power, to run a electric fridge -- so I don't have to rely on burning hydrocarbons to keep food from rotting. Yuppies will learn pretty fast about real life. Me, and most of my neighbors and co-workers, learned about life in the real world by using kerosene lamps for light, muscle power and buckets for water supply, wood for heat, and whatever we could afford and/or home build for solar and wind powered electricity.

I hope the world doesn't come to that, at least while I'm alive. But it's a possibility. Fossil Fuel use compared to demand will part ways on the big graph within a few years...how many years no one knows, but many get paid to predict. Even the likes Chevron are saying it's only about 10 years away.

Well...   I am currently displaced from the Northwest where nearly 100% of the electricity is one form of another of a "renewable resource".  Still not sure why Washington need the WPPSS project (usually called the "WHOOPS" project).

I was stunned to discover that the reason gas prices go up in the summer and fall in the winter is because most of the rest of the USA use fossil fuels to generate their electricity.  And AC is actually more expensive to run than heating.  And, I just got to Nebraska/Wyoming for the first time and saw endless lines of black coal trains...   Wonder what that will blow into our sky.  And, what will we do once the mines are empty?  Well, I guess that will be our grandchildren's problem.  Maybe by that time we'll be colonizing Mars.

The other thing I found interesting is that while there are some efficiencies with "bulk generation", the majority of the electricity generated and put on "the grid" never quite makes it to our houses.

There are many ways to incorporate a Renewable Energy Design.  In 1979, my parents decided to build a passive solar house.  It wasn't as efficient as they hoped, but the greenhouse was quite good for growing cactuses.  We also incorporated an early model of a water based heat pump, and added double the standard insulation as well as trying to build in some other conservation methods without actually giving up a thing.  Of course, now, laws have changed and what we put in 25 years ago is now standard today.

I actually drive a mid-60's car (imported)...   and get between 30 and 40 MPG...   And, I just now purchased a "new" late 60's SUV which I am also hoping will also get around 40 MPG.  Someday I will have an electric vehicle running off of solar energy.

Nearly 40 years later, I am still amazed that the AMERICANS haven't gotten it right and now the "BIG THREE" are screaming because nobody can afford to fill the tanks in their new SUVs....   And...  yes, it does hurt when a year ago I could fill my tank for $5, and now I've had to pay up to $10 for a tankful.

Ok...  so I digress a bit.

I have managed to fall into a need to run on "backup power", and decided to explore solar.  

I went out and purchased about 300 watts worth of solar panels (288 watts), for a bit under $1000, thinking that in a day I could generate about... Ummm...  288 watts * 10 hrs = approx 2  KWH of power per day (of course being somewhat conservative with my calculations).

Well, after I got them up on my roof, I discovered that I had somewhat overestimated my power generation capabilities.  I have some trees that are shading my array at times.  I have a sub-optimal angle, and probably have some line loss too.   And, of course, there can be CLOUDS.  And...  the ratings of the panels are a bit odd, as they are rated at 12V, but they don't seem to be concerned about the power they can push into a 12V battery.
Anyway, all told, rather than getting 2000 watt hrs / day...  on a good day I get about 200 watt hrs.  On a bad day, I can be down to less than 50 watt hrs.

Now, consider running your 100 watt bulb for a half an hour...   Makes you think twice about conservation.  Especially when I can run my 3 watt CFL bulb all day using about the same amount of power.

One starts counting the costs of little things....

Keeping my inverter plugged in so that I can have 110V whenever I want it...  well, that costs about 3 watts for a small inverter, and a bit more for a larger inverter.  So...   for 24 hrs...   we've got 72 watts hrs.  That is about half my entire generation capabilities on a good day, and exceeds the generation capabilities on a cloudy day.

SO...  just keeping that little inverter plugged in 24x7 costs me about $1000 initial investment.  Of course, for that $1000, I can keep it plugged in for the rest of my life.

My high efficiency Bosch tankless hot water heater sounded like a good idea when I was grid connected...  but it is one of the things in my house that requires 110V to run, and I cringe every time that it turns on the exhaust fan for 10 minutes longer than I have the hot water on.

Wind????

Well, I don't get enough wind in my back yard to amount to a hill of beans.  And...  I don't want to stay in my current house long enough to invest into tying a windmill onto my roof solidly enough that I could be assured that it won't go crashing into my neighbor's windows during the next thunderstorm, or head cartwheeling off down the street.

Surface Area...  not sure that I could add 10x the panels to my current South Facing part of the roof.  Actually, I've been considering putting a couple of panels facing South-West on my West facing roof.

Generator...
Well, yes, I will probably end up cheating a bit this winter.  But, I have a strong aversion to sucking down fossil fuels to bypass my panels.  However, I do have a 350 watt generator.   It should be plenty large enough to run 3 - 100 watt bulbs.  But, it is made to run on 12V/110V, and only puts out about 50 watts for 12V.  Hopefully this weekend I'll modify it to run straight 12V.

What size do many people get to run a household?  3KW generators?  It might be good if two people want to run hair dryers at the same time, but one certainly doesn't need to run a hair dryer all day.

Anyway...  in my next house, I will probably invest in $10,000 or more in solar panels, and a few thousand in hot water panels, and maybe even some "HEAT" panels.  

But, for now I find myself trying to learn to get by with the amount of power each day that it takes to power a typical space heater (or hair dryer) for about 10 minutes.

Let's see...  if I can run the space heater for 10 minutes for $1000 investment.  To run it for 24 hrs... ummm that would only be about $120,000 to run it 24 hrs a day.

The payback on commercial RE systems is just too long. In order to make RE more enticing to the general public, the payback has to be 5 years or less.

However here is a little food for thought. If you can build a solar hot water heating system for $1500 or less, now the whole idea becomes viable finacially..........................and if you build a wind turbine coupled to heating resistors to supplement your heating costs (with out that expensive grid tie inverter and generator), the wind turbine becomes finacially viable as well.

Bottom line, keep your capital upfront costs down on your RE systems, regardless of the type of RE you decide to install. Above all, calculate your payback period when installing an RE system. It should not be more than 5 years.

I live in Quebec, Canada.  Over 94% of the Electricity is generated by some Renewable Energy forms.  Being cheap and available, the electricity even displaces most others form of energy used at home (gaz, fuel oil and more).  This is pretty close to the perfect RE world you describe...  We are now installing windmill by the 1000 MWe.  Quebec has the space, the hydro and the wind... We can go like that for the next 50 years...

Guest what; Quebec is now talking "conservation" big time.  It just does not make sense to build new infrastructure all the time when we can do better with "conservation".  For sure, we are not at the stage to kill all phantom loads, but we are asking for better engineering now.  I will give you a lot of example that many grid connected people with an almost limitless supply of cheap energy will like to see:

Bad engineering examples:

While the gas milage has not gone up as much as we would have wished, I can buy a full sized pickup truck that gets better mileage than my dad's 68 volkswagen beetle. Homes are built with significantly more insulation. Flourescent lighting is now common in homes. Head down to the local home center tan try and buy some single pane aluminum framed windows. Compare the efficiency ratings of of the furnaces and water heaters and compare them to the models of 35 years ago. Compare refrigerators and freezers as well.

On the non-energy front, why don't you drive down a suburban street on garbage day and figure out the number of recycling bins that people have put out. I live near the most affluent neighborhood in town, and it is near 100%.

You are partly right, but partly wrong. People do not want to give up a lot to conserve, but they are more than willing to conserve if they see a point to it.

It's true, I need to actually build an RE system to see if I'm still in the mood to build some more rather than be careful about how I use it.

Thanks for sharing your opinions with me.  I understand your points of view much better than before.

To the "conserve without giving up anything just because it's cheaper than building more RE" contenders, I have to say that I would like to see some proof of that.  Aren't the more energy efficient appliances more expensive?  Contrasting extra money on each of several more expensive appliances vs. extra money once on one more wind machine...I dunno.  Maybe it's cheaper maybe it isn't.

RE enthusiasts 'get' conservation.  We often don't 'get' why people go into debt to buy a shiny gas-guzzler to pick up the kids when a 15-year-old, third-hand Corolla, the bus, or the kid's own legs will do the same thing much cheaper and more efficiently. but, in order to convert someone to your way of thinking, first you have to get them to LISTEN to you.  and "More, Cheaper" is as good a headline as any. (look how many people posted questions here about grid tie at the hieght of the recent petroleum panic. . .)

I think what Mountain Man is trying to say is that, if we wish to be missionary about RE, we need to start with a different tack than "change your lifestyle."  SUV drivers don't get 'change your lifestyle,' they 'get' 'more, cheaper.'  

We (the RE community) aren't immune to "more, cheaper--"  look how many times we refer to getting golf-cart batteries at walmart or CostCo or the boneyard.  

THIS IS THE WAY I 'GET' IT:

We can't help it if 'more, cheaper' colors our way of thinking.  It is quite literally in our genes! 'More, Cheaper' motivates a preditor to take down prey that can't run as fast as the herd. . . food more convienient and simpler than the herd patriarch.  'More, cheaper' appeals to the part of our brain that still lives on the savannah, armed only with our wits and maybe a stone knife; come to that, 'More, Cheaper'
motivated the first guy (gal?) who took up flaking flint. . . cutting meat with a knife allows you to process more, with less effort than tearing into it with hands and teeth. Lazyness is a survival trait that has served us well by keeping our ancestors from expending more energy than they could afford. The American Indian 'got' 'more, cheaper'- look how fast they dropped bows and arrows for firearms. . . Guns make hunting 'cheaper' in personal effort, giving 'more' time to do other things (like make war on the paleface). Agriculture is easier and more consistant than hunting and gathering. . . .People who don't operate on 'more, cheaper' don't need RE; they don't exist.

'More, Cheaper' brought us distributed electrical power, standards, interchangeable parts, (indeed, the very industrial revolution) telephones, personal computers, railroads, cars, and farm tractors. 'More, Cheaper' has enabled this forum and the projects we undertake;  Forcefield was formed on 'more, cheaper' because the founders  (paraphrasing) couldn't find a good, cheap source for magnets and wire. We use PMAs in place of auto alternators, because we get more power for less maintenence. More, Cheaper.

Pick a human activity (with the possible exception of reproduction) and 'More, Cheaper' is somewhere in the mix of motivations.  (sex comes from a different set of hardwired imperitives. . .)

granted, when it comes to adopting RE after living on the grid, lifestyle changes are often cheaper and easier than the 'more, cheaper' approach; and further, lifestyle changes are inevitable when you start looking at generating your own power. . . but still, 'more, cheaper' is operating. Windmills and solar are (long term) cheaper, easier and more dependable than fossil fuel gensets or pedalling an exercise bike. but conservation is still "more, cheaper"-- if I use less power in each activity, I can do more activities with less need for expensive generating capacity. 'More, cheaper,' indeed.

And for people who have lived without electricity and who are now putting in a RE system, 'more, cheaper' operates in a slightly different form;  flipping a switch to get light is more convienient and cheaper than fumbling for a match and lantern. . .

and for people who want to go off-grid as a political statement or a less intense way of life, doing so is still a form of 'more, cheaper' but in terms of personal values and personal angst over what we are costing our [planet, society, self, pick one or many]. . .   MORE, CHEAPER.

Until those that wish to explain RE to the thundering herd 'get' "more, cheaper" as a motivation, there will not be   more   demand, making the equipment   cheaper.

So, Sing it, Mountain Man!  Some of us 'Get it' the same way you do.

i'll get off my soap box. . .

Life on this planet is but a short time for all of us and we have to make the best of it while we can. It seems perfectly right that some people should spend their time as forerunners in renewable energy technology that is mainly focussed at domestic level.

It is more about living a life style that enhances one's life, and this is not always dollar driven.

I for one do not go without any of the mod cons I need, I have 240V AC power 24/7, cost, well can I pay the morgage, is there food on the table.

Am I different than most locals yes(hopefully seen as excentric so they will leave me alone), but my priorities are in different areas, same dollar pool different allocation.  

Re should not be promoted as "FREE" energy but as renewable energy, there in lies the crux of the matter, IMHO.

I'm going to overlook the fact that nobody who responded to my second post has compared the cost of CFL upgrade, saving maybe 500 watt-hours per day in a typical home...to the cost of an equivalent amount of additional RE (inverter and batteries and some solar or wind already existing at the site), say the addition of one small wind mill that will crank out 500 watt-hours per day.  Maybe 300 bucks for a small homemade wind mill that can more than meet this need in many areas of the world.  Let's say it lasts for 15 years, thats 20 bucks a year for this energy.  Ok, I'm gonna just give you that one, even though I'm not altogether convinced.

Now, what I was wondering with that second post was how the steeper cost of say a more efficient refrigerator or washing machine or the electric part of a more efficient HVAC system would compare to the cost of ADDING some additional solar panels or small wind mills, or for those lucky few with the option, some additional water wheels or whathaveyou.

I don't have the required data to make the calculations, but if anyone has actually looked into it, I would be interested to see if other avenues of electricity conservation in an RE supplied home are financially sound, when compared to adding some RE generation to an existing system.

Anybody?

jp

Sure, on a sane planet, reduce-reuse-recycle would work.  On this one, it just goes right down the toilet along with Jimmy Carter's fireside chats and the metric system.

Most of the planet uses the metric system.  There is one of the developed countries daft enough to still use feet and inches, furlongs and bushels - but people from that country sometimes forget that they are a small country on a large planet.

You might look beyond your borders and see what the rest of the world is doing.  For a few decades a dozen countries have had their outrageous energy requirements met with petrochemicals - but the petrochemicals are running out, and when the Oil Age is over, those countries will have to go back to a life like everyone else.

1. I've learned that some people consider it rude to have and state an opposing viewpoint.  I can't quite fathom how anyone could take anything in my original post as "rude", but some have stated as much and others merely suggested it with their tone.  I don't think I need any proof beyond that that this is indeed an insane planet.
2. I seem to come off as a troll when I'm trying to incite some reasoned debate.  I seem to be much better at bringing out people's guns and ammunition than their reasoned responses.  I'm going to go back to technical issues and leave the RE evangelism to others who may enjoy it more than me.
3. I've learned that some people will go on and on arguing with something they think you said rather than take the time to read what  you wrote and argue with that.
4. I noticed that nobody took the time to comment on the cost of expensive low energy appliances vs. an additional windmill added to an existing RE setup.
5. Some of you guys are alright.  I'd like to buy you a beer sometime.  Even some of you who disagree with me.

Also for the record, I like the metric system.  Never said otherwise.

I also like recycling.  Never said otherwise.

As for conservation (of energy), I think for me it comes down to an extension of something Ed said.  He said to him RE had to do with freedom.  Others said conservation comes down to money.  I agree with all of that.  For me, I don't need a lot of money, but one of my favorite types of freedom is having just enough of it that I don't have to think about it all the time; don't have to go out of my way to arrange things such that I can pay for my dinner.  To me, there is some serious freedom wrapped up in the notion of not having to run around the house turning off lights and such.  Some of you will see a contradiction in this.  To me, it just boils down to adding enough windmills that I can use all the juice I want.  That's a freedom I can sink my teeth into.

Watch the car commercials on TV.  They don't even tell you how much the thing costs - just what the monthly payments are!  Most of use are just one missed paycheck away from the poorhouse and not because we're poor!  Its because we're literally throwing our money away on impulses, never looking at the big picture.

Here in Nebraska we just had some really bad storms.  Thousands of people without power and the linemen can't fix the grid because the wind keeps blowing.  Think about it... No power and the wind won't stop blowing.  Oh, the irony!

His point about appealing to people with the solar powered SUV is right on.  Most people couldn't be bothered to invest in RE for thousands of dollars when electricity is "only" about 8 cents / kWH.

But MountainMan, your point of overproducing RE power is really just getting reeled into the "something for nothing" hype of some RE fanatics.  Don't misunerstand: I LOVE the idea of making my own electricity:

  I took apart a CD-ROM drive and put a little crank on the plastic gear attached  to the motor that opens the tray.  Using my own hands, I could produce enough electricity to run a 12V radio.  I got the hugest sh!t-eating grin on my face.  Why?  Cuz it felt like I was getting something for nothing.  That really gave me the bug for Wind Power.

Now, that zeal has to be qualified.  My house, according to Omaha Public Power District, uses about 1600 kW / month.  I've priced solar and wind at that rate.  It'd take 30 years to (maybe) pay me back.  After all, electricity IS only 8 cents per kW at the most!   AND, that's not including the thousands of dollars I'd spend on batteries in that amount of time!

So, I would never say RE is actually worth it (at today's prices) for someone like me.  Yet, I continue to persue it.  Why?  Beacause I really hate the idea of paying someone for something that I can "make" myself for "free."  And most of all, because I feel like a real CHUMP when the electricity goes out.  I HATE the fact that I depend on someone else for my "survival."  But RE is STILL too expensive for me to go off grid...

That brings us back to the main point.

Like money, electricity is about generation and consumption.  Sure, it'd be great to be so wealthy that money didn't matter.  

But most Americans, as I said, are one missed paycheck away from the poorhouse.  But they're NOT poor!  The average person could become wealthy if, intead of blowing money, they saved it.  Eventually, a person with good spending habits, a decent income, and no debt could amass large amounts of money.  It's true.  

But to get out of that dependency on that paycheck, you need to do one of two things:  Earn more, or Spend less.  I think we would all agree that not spending a dollar is easier than earning an extra one.

I bought a Kill-a-Watt meter to learn how much electricity things use.  My big computer has 7 hard drives and consumes over 280 watts.  It runs 24/7 and I use it about an hour a week.  (I tend to use my new laptop more now.)  I figured out that running that thing costs me $16 per month.  WHY?  Shut the darned thing off!  I'm not going to build a 300 watt windmill to run my ONE computer!

I don't know if I will ever go completely off-grid.  But with my wind turbines I'm going to build, i'll charge a battery that runs many LED nightlights around the house.  If I generate more power, i'll run some other appliances.  Meanwhile, I am trying to cut my consumption.  If you keep chipping away at it from BOTH ends (less consumption AND more generation) then one day when the neighborhood goes dark from an outage, YOU can be the a-hole whose lights are still on.

;)

Bottom line:  As long as you are wasting it (money or electricity) no amount is EVER enough.