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Blade dynamics -questions for the Board


By K3CZ, Section Wind
Posted on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 08:00:56 PM MST
Questions on matching blade and generator design.

If a swept area is the main determinant of available power in a given wind, (Piggott Guemes Is. worshop bood p8) how do the blade form factors fit into the picture? One blade? two blades? three blades? etc.?  Does Tip Speed Radio have any correllation with blade area and airfoils?

In general, it seems that that the bigger the blade, the slower the cut-in and max-power rpms., as determined  by an optimum TSR.  If there is a table showing the best compromise of cut-in rpms vs. best power rpms, I haven't been able to find it.  Since I am neither a woodsmith of any real skill, nor a fan of fine woodworking in general, I thot that I might stick to a 2-blade prop of uniform section and pitch, as Wincharger did for so many years.  It is easily formed on a good bandsaw with little handwork.  Besides, Hugh says that you only take a 10%hit on maiximum power in this configuration, yawing problems aside.  (I am thinking of an 8' by 6" two blader for 300 +/- watts to match my 2-disc Piggott machine under construction.)

And, in general how does one pick and appropriate TSR for your application?  I know it will be somewhere between 4 & 8, but where, exactly?  (and, I have read the appropriate sections of Hugh's books over and over.}

Perhaps one of you out there can direct me to a previous posting or other reference that discusses these issues in  meaningful, practical way?
                                         K3CZ                                        

Blade dynamics -questions for the Board | 5 comments (5 topical)

Re: Blade dynamics -questions for the Board (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 01:36:23 PM MST

You are right, swept area is the main deciding factor on power from the propeller.

If you want a cheap alternator you have to go for high speed and that means a high tsr.

If you want a quiet peaceful life you have to settle for lower speed and pay the price with a bigger and more expensive alternator.

Low tsr blades need a higher solidity so you need wider blades or more narrow ones.

To achieve the highest possible tsr you could use 1 blade but 2 is a lot simpler.

  1. blades suffer from vibration during yaw because the momentum about the yaw axis changes as the blade changes position.
  2. blades are free of this problem and can be used reasonably up to a tsr of 8 but beyond that there is a lot of interference between one blade and the next.
If you want very low tsr then the blades become so wide that it is more practical to increase the number.

In your case you can perfectly well use a 2 blade prop in place of the 3 but you must expect increased vibration during yaw. If you have a good clear site with little turbulence it shouldn't cause you much trouble but if it is a poor site it is not such a good idea.

If you are using Hugh's design of alternator, it loads up quite quickly with speed and the type of prop you intend to try will work ok but I would aim to make that blade with a nominal tsr of no more than 6. The highly tapered and twisted blades tend to be slower than a simple constant angle blade.

You should easily manage well over 300W from a 2 blade 8 ft prop, but go for a bit coarser setting angle than the old Wincharger which was meant for a higher speed.

You could also make a 3 blade by your simple means and again I would go for a coarser setting angle.

Flux



Re: Blade dynamics -questions for the Board (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by windstuffnow on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 01:53:37 PM MST

  The TSR is basically the speed at which the blades will run ( rpm ) in a given wind.  The power comming through the blade for a given area and wind speed is the same, the only difference is how the blade is extracting the power.  If you have a 20 blade 8ft prop it may run at only 100 rpm in a 20mph wind but is still extracting an equal amount of power as an 8ft 2 blade running at 500 rpm.  The only real difference is the torque created by the blades ( as well as the efficiency of extraction).  TSR comes in when your trying to match a blade set to an alternator.  If you have an alternator that has an open voltage of 12v at say 105 rpm then it wouldn't be very benificial to attatch it to the 100 rpm mill... simply wouldn't reach cut in speed.  So you need to match the blade speed with the alternator speed. This will determine your TSR.

For instance if you have an alternator that makes 12v at 100 rpm and you'd like your blade to start charging at say 6 mph and your working with an 8ft blade... the circumference of the 8ft blade is 25.13ft so the formula:

Rpm/(mph*88/circumference)= TSR

100/(6*88/25.13)=4.75

so you could design the blade to run at around a TSR of between 4.5 and 5 and it would work well.  At 4.5 it might cut in at just above 6 mph and 5 would cut in just below 6mph which would be just fine.

The "88" in the formula is simply a quick conversion to convert mph to feet per minute so the output of the formula is in rpm.

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed
 
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Blade dynamics -questions for the Board (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by picmacmillan on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 04:41:04 PM MST

hello...the only comment i have is on your suggestion to use two blades...i find with two blades they are generally noisy when turning, and hard to get balanced properly...for the noise alone reason, i would stay with 3 blades....the 2 blades do make a very unattractive noise so, give it a little thought...just my 2 cents..pickster
http://www.frecklefarmloghomes.com


Re: Blade dynamics -questions for the Board (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by zubbly on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 06:13:49 PM MST

Hi K3CZ!

The area i have where i run my genny is somewhat turbulent.  I had usually run a 3 blade with most of my gennys and never with any real problems.

     I had made a 9 foot 2 blade tsr 7 out of ash wood.  Often wanted to try it just to satisfy my own curiosity.  Within approx 1 1/2 months it had completely torn apart the steel base that was welded to my 3 phase conversion and allowed it to tilt forward and smack the tower.

Here is the end result:

LOL, not much left eh

Its unbelievable the vibration that goes on during yaw (speaking from experience). Unless you have a great wind area without much turbulance, i really suggest you go with a 3 blader.

Just my opinions  :)

have fun,  zubbly



Re: Blade dynamics -questions for the Board (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by K3CZ on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 07:28:22 PM MST

Thanks, gents!
That was just the kind of info I was looking for; both practical experience with 2 blade designs, and also supplying the missing link between swept area and blade design: that fewer blades will (need to) go faster to harvest the same amount of energy from a given swept area.  Also, that 3-blade design with simple linear blades is looking better all the time! A simpler answer than I expected.            73,    K3CZ                                  



Blade dynamics -questions for the Board | 5 comments (5 topical)
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