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can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's wind mill ?


By denny, Section Wind
Posted on Thu Mar 24th, 2005 at 04:32:26 PM MST
can you grid tie a hugh piggott's homemade wind mill ?

Hello. I was thinking of building the 48v Hugh Piggott's windmill design. But, I would perfer to have it grid tied instead of a bank of batteries. Is this possible?
I was looking at the xantrex suntie xtxr 2500 grid tie inverter. It will operate at 48v to 120v input. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Thank you
Denny
can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's wind mill ? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's win (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Victor on Thu Mar 24th, 2005 at 01:46:23 PM MST
(User Info)

I'm certain that the xantrex xtxr inverter will not work.

The only off the shelf choices would be a xantrex SW with GTI or an outback grid tied both of these would require a small battery pack.

SMA makes a windy boy version of their sunny boy inverters for battery-less grid tie. To use this you would need to wind the alternator for a 150 volt cut in, provide a means to keep the output  below 400 volts and loaded when the inverter is off line,and have a windy boy distributer program the power curve of the inverter to match your wind turbine.

 Both ARE www.abundantRE.com and Southwest windpower offer battery-less grid tie turbines using the SMA  windy boy inverters.

Make the wind fun!
Victor



Re: can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's win (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by denny on Thu Mar 24th, 2005 at 04:07:44 PM MST
(User Info)

Thank you for your reply ! Could you explain to me why you are certain this will not work? This windmill is suppose to put out 48 volts at low wind speed. The  minimum voltage input to this grid tie inverter is 48v.
Thank you
denny

[ Parent ]


Re: can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's win (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Victor on Fri Mar 25th, 2005 at 10:49:58 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Denny,

 It has to do with how the inverter "decides" what the proper loading on the source is to determine the peak power operating point.

 Since the inverter in question is designed to work with PV the MPPT algorythm is designed around the electrical charactoristics of PV panels. (MPPT stands for maximum power point tracking.)

 The PPV  (peak power voltage) of a pv panel varies mostly with cell temperature, and changes relatively slowly

 To my knowledge the algorythms used (in battery-less grid tie PV inverters) for finding the MPP of a PV array are based on:

 (1) Periodically sweeping the range of operating voltages for the PV array and then returning to the best operating point.

 (2) Dither, i.e.  move the operating point slightly up or down the voltage current curve, if the power increases continue in the same direction, if the power decreases move in the opposite direction.

 (3) Momentarily unload the panel to check the open circut voltage (which varies with temperature also) then back down X % to the approximate PPV.

 The exact algorythm for a given PV inverter my be a combo of these or some other method I am unaware of, and is usually proprietary.

 For MPPT of wind methods 1 and 3 will not work for obvious reasons (at least to me).

 The dither method of  2 would appear to work at first glance. However unless the momentum of the wind turbine is taken into account (different for each wind turbine design) increasing the load will take kinetic energy out of the system and always appear "better" on a momentary basis driving the turbine into stall.

 The obvious question is what if the inverter doesn't  "try " to track MPP.

 This will work fairly well and is what you end up with when using a battery based grid tie inverter. (note the different power curves for the AWP turbine for battery charging and high voltage grid tie, this is due to the better load matching of the grid tie model). To my knowledge there is no way to "trick" the inverter in question into this operating mode.

 Again, the easy way to accomplish wind grid tie will be with either a battery based Grid tie inverter such as Outback (easiest)or the high voltage SMA windy boy route. The windy boy is a sunny boy inverter with a wind turbine loading algorythm, it must be programed for a given turbine by the distributer (you will need to tell them the "slope" of the load line) and protected from over voltage.

Victor

[ Parent ]



Re: can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's win (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by TomW on Fri Mar 25th, 2005 at 11:27:36 AM MST
(User Info)

Victor;

Nice breakdown of how those systems work.

Sad fact is I think batteries are with us to stay for the near future of RE anyway.

Cheers.

TomW

Contact: IRC


[ Parent ]



Re: can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's win (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by denny on Fri Mar 25th, 2005 at 03:45:41 PM MST
(User Info)

Ok, now I understand. Thanks for saving me alot of money and disapointment
denny

[ Parent ]


Re: can you grid tie a homemade wind mill ? Permit (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by aogden (abogden@sbcglobal.net) on Tue Mar 29th, 2005 at 12:00:58 AM MST
(User Info)

I think the biggest obstacle might be to get approval from the utility and local government.  From what I have seen in California they want full engineering data and certification to get permitted for net metering! This can be costly and complex if not impossible for a home made system.
Let me know if I'm wrong!

Adrian



Re: can you grid tie a homemade wind mill ? Permit (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by denny on Thu Mar 31st, 2005 at 03:58:30 PM MST
(User Info)

Right now I am trying to convince ohio edison electric company that this exists by law. They have never heard of anything called net metering.


[ Parent ]


Re: can you grid tie a homemade wind mill ? Permit (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by ghurd on Thu Mar 31st, 2005 at 04:44:15 PM MST
(User Info)

Welcome to Ohio.
The California people never believe me when I tell them how it is here, in Ohio.
And never, EVER, argue with the inspecter, but that is another story...
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: can you grid tie a homemade wind mill ? Permit (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by bos on Thu Apr 5th, 2007 at 10:25:10 AM MST
(User Info)

I have not yet built my windmill.  Before I build a wind mill I am going to try to build a water wheel for use with my artesian well.  That is steady enough that I could probably use a standard solar grid tie.  Instead of using batteries isn't there a way to use a capacitor bank?  Basicly you just need to condition the electricty before it goes back to the grid right?  

[ Parent ]


Re: can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's win (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by jxc582 on Mon Jun 25th, 2007 at 06:29:30 PM MST
(User Info)

I have just purchased the Xantrex ST2500 used. I am currently repairing it (was broken when bought) and collecting solar pannels. I was considering supplementing my system with a windmill. Couldn't I use a bank of batteries to buffer the electricity from the windmill? The batteries could be car batteries in series up to 48V for example.



can you grid tie a homemade hugh piggott's wind mill ? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)
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