Fieldlines.com || Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny

Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products

Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny
By nanotech, Section Mechanical Posted on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:57:22 AM MST
Why not use a GM 105 1-wire?

Just wondering why more people don't use the GM 105amp 1-wire car alternator as the generator for thier wind gennies?
I mean, they have a built in voltage regulator so you never have to worry about over-charging your battery pack, and they already are designed for a 12V system.
Now, I can see using something else for a 24V or 48V system, but for those wanting (or needing) to run a 12V system, I would think that a large belt pulley on the windmill with a belt to drive the small pulley on the alternator so you get the correct RPM's for it would be a lot simpler than building from scratch or modifying something else for the same purpose.
I'm just wondering the down-sides to this idea. I'm still very new to the whole idea yet, so I might have overlooked some very vital component or problem here. I would just think that having something designed and built to do exactly what you're trying to do (charge a 12V battery system) would be ideal to adapt to your uses.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Darrin

Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny | 26 comments (26 topical)

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 10:34:23 PM MST

My understanding is they use power to make power, so they are not very good for
wind power use, for one.
And if the battery is to regulation voltage, there is no power being used or made,
so the blades are free to spin without drag, allowing the blades to overspeed.

That is enough for me, but I am sure there are other reasons.
G-
Ghurd.info

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Norm on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 10:44:19 PM MST

Also the voltage regulator is designed for car batteries not deep cycle so the regulator would
put a real wallop to the battery and fast charge
it....not good for deep cycle.
( :>) Norm.
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ghurd on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:22:16 AM MST

I missed this one.
Most batteries I replace for other people are cooked by this
style of charger. A simple alternator and lawn mower engine.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by tecker on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:06:01 AM MST

The rpm has to excced 1000 rpm to be effective and that's means some horsepower but it's a good unit . If you break down the field and add some magnets to the armature you get some better numbers but you deal with a cog at low rpm .

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:55:43 AM MST

If you live in a good wind area it may work well enough but it is not much good if you need to produce most of your power from low winds. Others have covered the main problems but I will try to cover the points in a bit more detail.

They have wound fields that need 30 to 40 watts to energise at low speed and this has to be deducted from your output. Add to this the losses in your belt drive and you have not much chance of any output below 10 mph unless you use an excessively large propeller which adds to your speed problems and presents difficulties in high wind.

Neglecting the field loss, the general efficiency is low, they are intended for high output from a small size and loosing a couple of horsepower from a car engine is not noticed.

If you can live with this so far, it is not a good idea to use the internal regulator. It normally has short leads to the battery and if you put it on a windmill the long leads will mean that the regulator will maintain 13.8v at the alternator and the resistance of the cables will play havoc with the output long before the battery is anywhere near charged. Also it will never fully charge and you will have to equalise the battery from some other source at intervals to avoid sulphating.

More of a problem, that has already been mentioned is the fact that as soon as the regulator reaches 13.8v the alternator starts to run with reduced field and sheds load to suit what is going into the battery. This causes your blades to overspeed and effectively run with no load. At best it will be very noisy and with most home made blades it is likely to be dangerous. The gyroscopic and centrifugal forces increase drastically with speed and something is likely to fly apart or strike the tower.

If you go down the car alternator route, bypass the regulator and use a dump regulator at the battery. These alternators are reluctant to start generating without the help of current from the warning light and you will need a speed or wind pressure switch to connect the field when there is enough wind and disconnect it when there isn't.

You can of course improve things quite a bit by fitting permanent magnets to replace the field winding but then you have lost the virtue of simplicity and it is as easy and much more effective to produce a permanent magnet alternator that does the job much better.

Hope that gives you enough idea to make your own decision.
Flux

[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by commanda on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:31:04 AM MST

When the wind drops, the regulator will wind the input power to the field winding up full, trying to generate charging current. Battery goes flat trying to power the field winding, and blades will never start to spin because there is so much load on them.

Amanda

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by domwild on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:39:59 AM MST

Sure, it has been done. One problem is the power that is used up to create the magnetic field, which with the home-built units is created by permanent magnets.

The other problem is the carbon brushes which wear out and replacing something high up in the air requires a lot of effort.

Then the electricity to create the magnetic field (and causes cogging) can only be applied when the prop is spinning, this means one has to build some sort of a wind-activated switch to switch on the field windings. This can be done with some sort of a mercury switch or reed switch on a moving vane plus relay. And one hopes a sudden gust which switches on the field keeps on going to turn the prop and doesn't break it to a dead stop.

A few problems, which are not unsurmountable but which are a headache to most.

Keep in mind a car alternator runs at about 1200 RPM at idle and then runs at up to 6000 RPM to generate power while the prop makes 500 RPM at most before it flies off.

Best pick a low-RPM truck alternator or perhaps even a permanent magnet alternator from a truck, but from a wrecker and as cheap as possible.

Good luck,

dom We only ever use the best fencing wire for our repairs!

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by nothing to lose on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:01:51 AM MST

Lots of good answers been posted why not. And I agree mostly.

I have a couple thoughts as to how though anyway.

First you would need gearing, chains, or belts as mentioned to get the high rpms at the altenator. That eats wind power. If you have lots of high wind not a big problem, low winds not good.

As for brushes wearing out, I would not worry about that, or bearings ect.., After many many thousands of miles my altenators are working fine, I don't think a wind gennie will wear them out much faster than my driving does. We are talking years of driving. How fast does an altenator spin at 70 Mph, rather producing power or not?
A genie should probably be taken down for inspection and such from time to time anyway, so check such things then. There's no thrust loads on the bearings since the blades are mounted elsewhere. Only the normal bearing loads with belts, or even less if using chain drive.

I agree, disable the built in regulator on the altenator and use one at ground level like other mills have. Perhaps trick the altenator into thinking the battery is never above 11.5V or 10V so it tries to put out full power always, then install a dump load like for any other wind gennie when the batteries are full. Some altenators that might be easier than others. If it monitors and charges with one wire it might be hard, if it had the external regulaters it should be easier.
If I recall correctly, if you short the pin on those one wire alts they put out 110v AC, been awhile and not certain, but pretty sure. This might be an option also, play safe!

Perhaps a small switch installed to turn it on and off when the wind is blowing good.
A push button switch that only flows power when pressed, a lever to push it, a wind vane to move the lever. If no wind the altenator is getting no power from batteries, strong wind the button is pressed and altenator kicks in. Easily adjustable by size of tail/vane or light springs. Could let blades free spin in low winds, and only load them in power producing winds. Heck if ya wanted to get fancy here you could even have like a small fan at the root to grab the wind at the hub when the blades are spinning and that blows onto the switch to activate it, then the blades are always up to speed before the switch activates.
In high winds it's always under a load, so no problem with over speeding.

I think they aren't as good as they first sound, but for some people and lots of thought and some tinkering they may work ok.

Might be a fast cheap fairly easy way to get some power if you have the wind for it. Some of those alts are rated for 100 amps (1200watts) or better (probably never get the max), figure even 80amps is 960watts though. I been buying used 1 wire alts for $20, belts 5 for a $1 so it could be a cheap experiment if you shop around.
35amp toggle switches were 2/$1 also. Check local scrap yards, auto junk yards, probably the smaller ones, and just get what they have that's right and don't worry about what it was for, that's how I get the best prices on what I want.

.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by electrondady1 on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 06:02:24 AM MST

how about this, convert an alternator to use neo mags on the rotor . run the output of this unit into the rotor of a second alternator. the faster the wind blows the more power created. no wind? no problem.

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by nanotech on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 08:08:33 AM MST

Ok, I see a couple of the problems with a car alternator now.

I didn't take into affect the field windings with no wind. That's a very good point I completely missed. See, I'm looking at going the route of a steam engine turning my alternator, so I wasn't thinking of "dead times" like you get with wind.

The problem of the "long distance regulator" could easily be solved by getting an alternator with an external voltage regulator and mounting it at the batteries. But I guess then you run into the problem of having 6 or 7 wires all the way up your tower. Lose a lot of efficiency that way. Again, I was thinking of my steam genny system, so was missing out on the distance a tower generally is from the battery pack.

I have often wondered about a centrifigul clutch/brake idea for the blades on a wind genny. If the RPM's get too high, the centrifigul clutch grabs a hold of a brake to slow them down to under over-speed conditions. Kind of like trailer brakes except the drum is stationary and the shoes rotate. When the speed gets too high, the weight of the shoes expands them onto the drum.

What do you folks think of that idea? Would that work as an emergency backup type thing? Or am I making things too complicated/heavy and current method works better? :)

Darrin
__________________________________________
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru!

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by nothing to lose on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 10:42:52 AM MST

"I have often wondered about a centrifigul clutch/brake idea for the blades on a wind genny. If the RPM's get too high, the centrifigul clutch grabs a hold of a brake to slow them down to under over-speed conditions. Kind of like trailer brakes except the drum is stationary and the shoes rotate. When the speed gets too high, the weight of the shoes expands them onto the drum.

What do you folks think of that idea? Would that work as an emergency backup type thing? Or am I making things too complicated/heavy and current method works better? :) "

Using the tail to turn it out of the wind is probably the easiest thing and no brakes to wear out. The idea has come up before about brakes and also useing a clutch to engage the blades once they get up to speed has been discussed.

Brakes might be ok, nice way to just lock it down tight when you don't want it running at all, like working on it or if something breaks. Turning it out of the wind some lets it produce power and having a load on it helps keep the rpms down also. But if a wire comes loose and you lose the load it freewheels, might be nice to have brakes then. But if mounted to spin they would be useless for this anyway, how could you engage them from the ground?

Brakes are probably more trouble than they would be worth, at least for the average home built smaller mills. Getting into large or giant sized mills might make them more worth thinking about.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by nanotech on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:00:41 AM MST

[quote]But if mounted to spin they would be useless for this anyway, how could you engage them from the ground?[/quote]

Please bear in mind I'm not always the best at putting what's in my mind into words. :D

I was thinking put the drum on the stator. Then put the shoes on the rotor so that they are spinning. Use the return spring and weights to set up the exact RPM you want them to start engaging at. That way when the blade system starts to get up to overspeed RPM, the shoes start to get flung outwards onto the drum, thereby creating a braking force. They'd be automatic.

As you say, would be handy if something goes catastrophically wrong with the generator and you lose induction braking. Sort of a backup emergency brake.

And as for engaging them for maintenance, you could put a friction brake on the outside of the drum (much like old style gokarts used to use. You know, the ones that scrubbed a flat plate on the tire?). Just make it cable operated from the ground.....
__________________________________________
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru!
[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by mcgivor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:30:15 PM MST

youn should look into how the older type water-pumping windmills worked. They had a brake system on them, they also were designed to run in low winds with lots of H.P.. to lift water (large load) from a dead stop. They were geared down, not up.

[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Vernon on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 10:43:58 AM MST

I think it is a good idea. You have to make the prop a couple of inches larger in diameter to make up for the field and belt losses but that seems easier than building an alternator from scratch. I would modify the "one wire" idea to include remote sensing of the regulator control voltage at the battery terminals. I would put a diode (50V 5A) in series with the sense lead and install a switch to bypass the diode. That would allow placing the diode in series, dropping the sense voltage by 0.6V and raising the alternator output to about 14.5V when I wanted to equalize the battery. A suitable electronic circuit could sense RPM by picking up the ripple frequency at the battery ... the alternator "whine" that you might hear when between stations on a cheap car radio. If it got to overspeeding a load would be energised to slow it down. The load could depend on the season ... in the winter it could be heat lamps inside the house ... in summer a peltier device that removed heat from the house. A starting point for the drive ratio might be 4 to 1. You probably have to get the alternator up to 2000 RPM or so to get that rated current. I like off the shelf stuff. I would get a utility trailer spindle, bearing, hub and brake drum. I would lathe a flat in the outside of the drum for a serpentine automotive belt. The spindle would attach to a piece of 6 in channel. You can get blades at:

www.hydrogenappliances.com/bladekits.html

It would take very little machine work to get something together. Keeping things in perspective, if you have 10MPH average wind you might get 50 cents worth of electricity a day. If you spend a lot and do a hundred hours of labor to fabricate some sort of optimal system then total the value of all that it becomes apparent that you could have worked, put the money in the bank and bought electricity with the interest. To be real something that makes 300 Watts only when the wind is blowing has to be easy and cheap.

I also think that you could use that 105 amp alternator best in say a stick shift pickup truck. Put a 12V forklift battery in the toolbox. Arrange for a relay to energise when the brake lights are on or the manifold vacuum is over 17 inches. The relay connects the fork lift battery to the alternator output. Every time you step on the brake the battery charges, helping to slow the truck (saving the brakes) and recovering some of the energy you used to accelerate the truck. Going downhill the vacuum switch uses the potential energy you invested in going up the hill to charge the battery when your foot is off the gas and the engine is above idle speed .. causing high vacuum. When you get home you plug the battery into your inverter system, turn on your TV ect and use that energy. The next day you do it all over again. No towers, no overspeed worries .. very little work. I think that somebody who makes a 20 mile commute through suburban traffic is throwing away more energy using his brakes than he would get from the typical windmill and that 100 amp alternator is already mounted and mechanically connected.

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Vernon on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:17:11 AM MST

Another arguement for leaving the alternator in the truck .. and even going to two 145 Amp alternators:

E = 1/2 MV^2

a 2000KG pickup truck at a velocity of 25 meters per second gives a kenetic energy of 625000 joules or watt seconds that can be recovered by "alternator braking". One stop from speed is equal to maybe 25 or 30 minutes of wind generator running in a decent wind. If the truck has a carburator the idle speed is a compromise, if it were to be slowed 100 RPM by alternator load while stopped for a light ... that is simply using energy that was wasted as friction to spin the engine 100 RPM faster ... that now feeds the battery. If you drive over a mountain pass to get to work (lots of people in California and Nevada do that) you can recover some of that potential energy. This energy is a lot cheaper to collect than wind or solar.

[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by scottsAI on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:11:49 PM MST

FYI the efficiency of an automotive (alternator) generator is 54%.
Efficiency is a key factor in the success of a RE system.
I am an automotive electrical design engineer.

The durability to last 100k miles seems great until you understand:
The average speed a car travels while running is 30 mph.
Average car runs <5% of the time. (based on 12,500miles/yr.)
100,000/30 = 3,333 hours, or 138 days or 4.6 months.
A Wind generator is running most of the time. So in 6 months or so the brushes will need replacing. (depending on actual run time). You have exceeded the normal life span of an alternator. Replacing brushes is not an easy job for most alternators.
Brush less is the way to go. Motor conversions look like they are more work then just making your own generator from scratch. Not seeing any cost savings.

Using a braking system to shut down the generator in high winds, has been used since the 70's. The system must be automatic adds complexities, reliability problems etc. I read about a wind system that self destructed due to the brake coming on to fast. Not sure what or how it happened but the blades exploded and riped the gen off the tower. The forces we are dealing with here are huge. Using a brake to slow to working range will NOT work. A brake converts potential energy to heat. The power in wind is a cubic function. So a system at 1k watts for normal winds can be dealing with 30k watts in very high winds. This will generate a large amount of heat. You could try to cool the brake, after all you have a bunch of wind. Then the issue of hours of run time in a storm, don't think the brakes will last. Trying to use brakes only coming down a mountain will fry a brake system with bad results!

The wind generator designs on otherpower are much simpler and more reliable than past designs. Cost is very low. Requires a little extra assembly in making your own generator. The tilt tower keeps repairs from being dangerous. We lost many Wind pioneers in the 70's due to falling out of their towers. We would not like to loose you.

I suggest you copy a working design. To the letter. If the simple elegance does not satisfy your creative mind then experiment with your ideas, after you have under your belt a working system. May I suggest while experimenting to build small first? These things can be dangerous. So can building them. Building your own system can be very rewarding. Depending on your goals. Why do you want to build, for the fun or need?
Have fun!

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by Vernon on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:40:02 PM MST

It seems that a simple brake could be designed into the hub. The blades would be held in against centrifugal force by springs. When speed/centrifugal force overcome the springs the blades move out, as they do a pin in a track turns them to a feathered position. They would fully feather before hitting a destructive speed .. so they never get to that speed. No brake heat is generated and speed is regulated without heating the generator by a shorting control.

What is the efficiency of a PMG wind generator over the typical wind speed range ? Lets say that the battery is down to 11 volts, a breeze comes up and the output gets to 11.6V, forward biases a blocking diode and starts trickle charging, a few milliamps. Very little power is being produced compared to the friction and windage losses of spinning the thing at the necessary RPM. The wind increases and so does charging .. say at 15 AMPS we get to a point of maximum efficiency but the wind increases some more, the internal thevinin voltage of the generator is at 20V, the battery is at 13.9 and 30 Amps is flowing into the still depleted battery. It seems we now have considerable loss in the internal resistance of the machine. The wind picks up some more, the voltage is driven to 14.5 and the shunt regulator kicks in and contributes to the loss. The big arguement for the PMG field would seem to be in light wind, "barely charging" conditions. If it is turning rapidly the increased voltage is not controlled by the field and must be reduced to a safe level by artificially loading the system ... not particularly efficient.

Is the 54% for the alternator its efficency over the typical operating range ? I start my truck and it might be 80% efficient while it replenishes the battery but when I am cruising along and it is producing just a few amps for ignition its field, friction and windage loss make it 15% under those conditions ? I imagine if it ran at full load at a midrange speed its efficiency might exceed 80%.

[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by nanotech on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 03:54:47 PM MST

Heh, I'm looking to build for need!!

My January electric bill was over $500!! :O

And that was only January. November, December, February and now March have all been over the $200 mark. Electric heat and all. But using a fossil fuel for heat isn't much better. My neighbor spent over $2,600 heating his house this winter between propane and electricity.

So if I can devise a system (like the steam powered one in another thread) to create electricity and heat, it will pay for itself rather quickly. No matter WHAT it costs!!

For those that missed it, I'm planning on using a corn burner (I live in the corn belt) to create the steam, a single or dual cylinder compound steam engine to turn a generator, then take the exhaust steam and route it to the house. From there it will be run through a couple radiators which will also act as condensers, and then the outflow from them will be routed back to the boiler to be used to create steam again.

Hence why my lack of knowledge/understanding about wind systems. I've been devoting my time and thought energy to my steam one....

I figure a 4 or 5 hp steam engine will be able to spin a 5 pack series of 1KW generators, which will be fed into a battery pack of about 10 or 12 batteries. Then I'm going to use a 360 RPM motor to spin a rotary coil transformer to be my inverter. Because of the 5KW demand (electric stove, hot water heater, and clothes dryer) none of the readily available commercial ones will suffice, so I've got to go home-brewed on that, too.

Just gotta figure out the winding structure to take 12VDC and turn it into 120VAC and be able to handle 5KW!! :O

*thinking to self* Let's see, 5KW at 120VAC = around 42A. 5KW at 12VDC = about 417A. Somehow I think my output transformer's going to be HUGE!! Sounds like maybe I might want to go to a 48V system. 5KW at 48VDC = around 104A. Mind you, I won't have to take the full 5KW through one inverter as I'll need two to create the 220V for the big energy items anyways....

Whew, this is looking like I need to re-think some things.....
Maybe use the output steam to run through the hot water heater, use some electricity to create hydrogen and get a gas stove to burn that. Then all I've got left to do is figure out the clothes dryer and my well pump!! :P

Ok, here's another thought :
How hard is it to wind a home-brewed generator like Hugh's to output 120V? That way I'd just hook all my batteries in series and have a 120VDC system. Then my inverter would only have to create the sine wave and not bump the voltage up. Is this possible?
__________________________________________
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru!

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by scottsAI on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:26:12 PM MST

Ok, now I'm getting a better understanding.

Most importantly. Where do you live?
I'm having trouble understanding why the $500 bill.

I live in Michigan. I have 16 computers running SETI. My electric is $235/mo.
Gas is around $60/m average 12 months a year to heat 1350 sq ft house including the basement. Includes hot water Gas drier, gas stove top. Electric oven. Microwave.

Maybe explain what the whole problem is. How big is your house. How is it insulated. Do you need Air conditioning?
How good is the wind source? What is average wind speed. Each hour per day speed.
Is hydro available? River, stream etc.
Solar?
Wood? What's it cost?

With a $500/mo bill, you can afford many grand expenses to reduce your monthly bill.
So let's hear your story. I expect it will be interesting!
Have fun.

[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by nanotech on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 06:44:16 PM MST

Well, I live in northern Minnesota. About 140 miles north of Fargo, ND.

My house is a small turn-of-the-century "hunting cabin" of only 20'X26'

There is little to no insulation in the walls and none in the floor at all. That will be changing this summer, finances allowing. We've already priced the MDF and fiberglass to do the walls and floor at around $800.00

I live far enough out of town that getting gas to my house is not a possibility, and both propane and fuel oil are ungodly expensive.

So my entire heating is done with baseboard electrics. Two 6 footers and two 4 footers downstairs and then two portable oil-filled radiators upstairs.

And with all that, there were several days in December and January each that the indoor temperature was below 50 F. And that's with the electric oven on full blast and the door open to the first notch as well.

If I can't get the steam system up and running before winter comes again I'm going to get a corn burner stove in to at least keep the house warm. Even if I don't get the insulation done, I need more BTU production than the poor little baseboards can put out. If I get the corn burner in, I can remove the baseboards all together.

So I think you can see why I want to get off the grid. I figure if I got both the steam system running AND the corn burner inside the house, my winter heating AND electric bills for the YEAR will be under $500 as I can get corn dirt cheap (or even free) direct from the farmers. I will be able to use the "crap" they harvest from the outer rim of the field that can't be sold and doesn't make seed. But it'll burn!!!! :D

I'm not sure what the average wind speed is around here, but I know it's not reliable enough for wind power. Hence why I'm going steam.

Hydro is out as the land is PERFECTLY flat. To the point that the only thing that disturbs your view to the horizon is another house, barn or tree. Certainly no elevation changes.....

The biggest problem for me right now is that I lost my job last August. We've been surviving on unemployment (and now welfare) and trying like mad to find another job. Savings are drained, cards are maxed out, sold every gun that was worth selling, etc, etc, etc. So needless to say, fundage is a major problem for me right now. I've got a couple jobs lined up, just gotta' make myself more presentable to the prospective employer than everyone else!! :P

But regardless of how I do it, I never again want to pay $500 to Red Lake Electric Coop for one month's worth of service, nor do I EVER want to have to use the hair dryer for 15 minutes to warm my feet up enough to go to sleep because the floor of my house is at a contact temperature of 12 F!!!
__________________________________________
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru!
[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by scottsAI on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:39:09 PM MST

Sorry for your job loss. I hope that does not happen again.

The most important thing you can do is to add INSULATION. All walls, ceiling and floor. If the cabin floor is on the ground. Then outside the foundation on the sides you can dig along the foundation and put 1-2” of insulation vertically, go down at least to the frost line. You have one darn cold floor.

I have a laundry room, I paid the builder 17 years ago to put foam insulation under the slap. The jerk kept the foam. The floor was so cold in the winter. You could not stand on the floor for 2 min with your bear feet. I put Foam vertically down 3-4 feet 1” foam. Floor is nice in the winter today. Made huge difference. I would guess not as good as if it was under the slab, but after the fact the best one can do. I considered 2”, decided on 1” Your much colder 2” may be better. Money is a problem, so 1” is much better than nothing. Important; Blue foam or closed cell foam, made for below grade.

The second most important to do, is make the place AIR tight. Need a little leaking so you can breath. If the air becomes muggy feeling then maybe too tight.

Since you have corn, how about making alcohol? Can use it in your car, or run a generator etc. You can get a license to make it (cheap). The mash can be sold for cattle feed for more than the cost of the corn. (I have no idea of the ratio mash:corn.) The mash must be dried. Solar... more corn? I figured 5 acre of corn will provide enough gas for the average car. (12.5k miles/yr).

I have been interested in steam for years, today I consider it to dangerous. Pleas be very careful.

“If I get the corn burner in, I can remove the baseboards all together.” Sounds like a good idea.

After you get these things done to your place, Tell your neighbor, it's a neighborly thing to do, Offer your services for hire, show-help-do the work to reduce his bill.

Last thing. Do you have a degree? You have shown you have a mind. I had a job while I went to school, was 29, NOT fun. My pay went up 3x. Never lost a job since. I'm so glad I paid the price, the benefits are HUGE. Make sure the degree is worth something. Marketing degrees were popular years ago, worthless for a job. Most states have programs to help you along, grants, etc. Worth the time investigating.
Never trust the schools counselor's. Many have been given bum info. Always check everything they tell you. IT's your future, not theirs.
Last comment. ONLY ask for advice from people that have succeeded in what you want. NEVER ask anybody else. This goes for everything I have said. Verify it's your life. I find most people are very willing to help, you just have to ask. Be respectful. It's great for their Karma:-)
Have fun.

[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by nothing to lose on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:27:15 AM MST

If as you said you could get junk corn free or close, then that's the first things to do. Insulate the house, keep out the cold and keep in your heat, regaurdless of what you heat with anyway. Also helps keep the place cool in summer heat.
Then buy or build a corn burner for the heat. You can heat water with it and even cook on it if you get one like a woodburner. Heck even hang the clothes nearby and dry them too. Just about helps with everything.

I use wood for all that, I think corn should work as well.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by ghurd on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:24:23 AM MST

You can not afford to go WITHOUT insulation!

This house was sealed well (new windows and doors) and semi-insulated (attic and a couple stray places).
The gas bill droped by 60%, in a colder winter, after insulation in the walls and really beefing up the attic. The gas also does the hot water (2 women here) and clothes dryer (still 2 women here).

The total installed cost was saved in less than 2 winters. And it is a lot more comfortable too, winter and summer.

G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Vernon on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 06:31:50 PM MST

$500 a month represents a staggering amount of power relative to the typical wind or solar system. A rather big and expensive "off the shelf" wind turbine would be necessary for that kind of output. It might be better to simply burn propane in a generator that is housed in an insulated sealed building attached to the house. An insulated pipe, maybe 6" PVC, brings cold air from the outside to the engine air intake. The engine exhausts into a large automotive muffler that then exhausts to the outside. Cooling air from the engine heats the room, exhaust flow stagnates in the large muffler and rejects a lot of its heat to the room. Everything is well sealed and sensitive carbon monoxide detectors provide shutdown in the event of an exhaust leak. Air from the dwelling is then circulated through this room to recover most of the waste heat from the engine. The airflow also keeps the room at 110F or less so the engine can live at least as well as it would driving a compressor on a construction site in Phoenix in the summer. It is then possible to recover the heat wasted by the engine, that is about 70% of the BTU's in the propane. That is a lot more efficient than using electricity generated by a steam plant 50 miles away that might be 35% efficient and subject to additional transmission losses. Cost is low compared to wind or solar and the interest on the difference will buy some propane.

You can then get creative with fuel, burn corn biomass in a container with a restricted O2 supply, boil a little water in the same container and run the exhaust through an automotive catalytic converter. C0 + H20 ------> H2 + CO2 in the classic water gas reaction, membranes are available to separate the H2 which can then be added to the propane as it flows into the engine. Pile some cow manure in a cooler section of the same container and add methane to the gas mix ... an O2 sensor on the exhaust header keeps everything stochiometric no matter what.

[ Parent ]

Re: Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by nothing to lose on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:11:13 AM MST

About $500 is what I paid for my 5K 12V inverter and it has a 10K surge capacity according to the manufactorer. I only got the 120Vac one. Had it over a year now, like it alot.

You can also get them in 240Vac models.

I think the problem is not going to be the inverter, it will be more of all the power your using and how to make it. Start looking for ways to use less and still be happy :)

"I figure a 4 or 5 hp steam engine will be able to spin a 5 pack series of 1KW generators, which will be fed into a battery pack of about 10 or 12 batteries. Then I'm going to use a 360 RPM motor to spin a rotary coil transformer to be my inverter. Because of the 5KW demand (electric stove, hot water heater, and clothes dryer) none of the readily available commercial ones will suffice, so I've got to go home-brewed on that, too.

Just gotta figure out the winding structure to take 12VDC and turn it into 120VAC and be able to handle 5KW!! :O"

First be wise about the use, you don't actually have to cook at the same time your drying clothes do you? If not your inverter does not have to be powerful enough to do both at once anyway.

And if your going to run a steam engine for a generator, then why not just get a generator head for it? I think Harbor Freight just had a 7k or 10k on sale a couple months ago for about $300. Use the steam heat, run the gennie, use 120vac and 240vac direct as produced for those heavy loads, and charge batteries for inverter use later for normal loads. Except for the steam engine part and feul for it, $2k or maybe alot less could have you powered up.

$300 for 10k generator head, $500 for 5K 120v inverter, $1200 left to buy batteries and cables :)
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]

Corn burners..flash steam (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by Norm on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 04:03:53 PM MST

....and steam engines made from easily converted
lawnmower engines... Go to:
http://www.flashsteam.com/steam_proj2_pg1.htm
Have Fun
Norm.

( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]

Gearing a car alternator for a wind genny | 26 comments (26 topical)

Menu

� create account
� How to use the board
� FAQs
� search the board
� Google search the board

Login

Make a new account

Username:

Password:

Total Views

��190 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links

� Also by nanotech

You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest � 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!