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single coil alternator...


By windstuffnow, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 09:18:34 PM MST
another breed?

  Well, from the pile of words from my posting a few days back here is the idea that came from it...

  Its a single coil alternator, has to be the simplest alternator I've ever built...

   The three parts include.. the coil and 2 stator plates...


   Below shows it assembled... whew..hard work
   

   I attatched a 22" 3 blade set to it and took it outside.  Not much wind today so I only saw 120 rpms from it but it was making 3 volts AC from the alternator.   In a 6mph wind the blades will do around 500 rpm so the alternator should make 12.5 volts at that speed.  

   It won't make any real power, the coil was wound with #31 wire and it has a resistance of around 30 ohm.   The air gap between the magnets and the steel plates is around 1/4" so its not a real precision machine.   It does however create a proof of concept machine that could easily be taken to the next level.  

   So from a pile of words to an idea to reality in a couple days...

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed
   

single coil alternator... | 26 comments (26 topical)

Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by DBGenerator on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 03:46:31 PM MST

I don't get it!!  Where is the other pile of words??  Maybe that will explain it.




Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by ghurd on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 04:07:23 PM MST

Me too.
Is it 6 (12 for dual rotor) magnets, NSNSNS, making one 'Y' N and the other 'Y' S?
Isn't that against the thumb/index finger/ middle finger rule... somehow?
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by windstuffnow on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 04:18:30 PM MST

  Sorry about the confusion... It has a single rotor of magnets, 6 poles.  There is a front plate and a back plate (stator plates) with the coil in the middle.   Basically you have 3 poles on one plate and 3 on the other.  At one point the back plate is North and the front plate is south then when it changes it reverses the polarity on the plates.  The flux flows through the coil from the plates.  The picture below shows the blades, magnetic disc and alternator mounted to a board.  Just a quick handheld test machine.


It's 3.5 inches in diameter ( quite small ) and I don't believe it would be easy to scale up... but It could be done.  I actually didn't think it would work as well as it does...

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by johnlm on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 04:06:47 PM MST

Ed,
So did you have a plate with 6 round magnets for the rotor?  Just curious as you didnt say or show it.
This approach is very similar to what is inside the bicycle generators that have a hub that rubs up against the side of the tire.  They are a 4 pole device with a single coil (about 500- 600 Turns of #26 ; about 4 Ohms resistance) with the metal finger plates folded over and a single 4 pole ceramic (a pretty weak one I might add) rotating inside the fingers.  They put out about 4 to 5 V at around 1800 rpm. And are rated at 6V and 3W likely at around 3000 RPM.  This is one good way to get maximum use out of a single coil.  Was the cogging pretty bad on this one with (Im assuming here) neo mags.
Regards,
John



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by rotornuts on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 04:09:03 PM MST

So am I correct to assume your again using a disk of magnets as before and spinning it in relation to the above setup? Do the metal stator pieces create a flux path? Interesting.



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by richhagen on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 04:11:42 PM MST

I rather like that for its simplicity.  I doubt its as productive per unit mass of magnet though.  Its so simple, I may even build one of those to play with.  Did you use two magnet rotors as described in the previous discussion, or one to start with for experimentting?  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'


Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by windstuffnow on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 04:24:53 PM MST

  I highly doubt its very efficient.  As you said it doesn't fully utilize the power of the magnets.  It was just an idea that I had to try.  Single rotor was used for testing.  I'm not sure a dual rotor would significantly increase its output... might be fun to try just for the heck of it.

  Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by wooferhound on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 04:38:07 PM MST

I am courious about the cogging on this one. Somehow remonds me of the Magnetic interupter gen that IFred was working on

Your one coil genny and a single blade prop from rotornuts should work well together. Now if we could get it all down to one magnet ?

)}=- W o o f -={(



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by richhagen on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 05:10:07 PM MST

in looking at this, it looks like, based upon the resistance, that you used about 238 feet of copper in the coil.  Wow that is a lot.  I am curious about the dimensions of your test setup.  I wonder if cogging would become significant if the gap were made closer because of the size of the air gaps between the fins of the oposite poles.  I wonder if changing the shape of the fins so that they are wedge shaped with a relatively small gap between opposing poles would reduce that cogging.  Changing the threaded rod to a cylinder, or other changes might help optimize this.  One could have a lot of fun with this little design, thanks for sharing.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'


Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by windstuffnow on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 05:39:05 PM MST

  Here is a picture of the general overall layout... quite simple...



  I'm sure alot could be done to improve the little unit.  I basically grabbed the closest and easiest things to build it out of to see if it could actually work.

   Woof... One magnet?  I can visualize this but I think it would really have to spin fast!  

   As far as cogging, its really not that bad.  If you brought the magnets to a gap of say around .030 then you may have to get involved with shaping the fingers.

   Have to break up the boredome of winding coils all day...

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by ghurd on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:09:41 PM MST

In theory, would a dual rotor with N oposite N, and S oposite S, be better?
You have my panties in a twist!

Don't tell my wife I said that. ;)
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Walt on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:17:43 PM MST

ghurd, you may be on to something there. It makes sense to my small pea brain of using a dual rotor N-N S-S.I guess there is only one way to find out.
On the other point you made just turn backwards a couple of turns, that should do the trick.

[ Parent ]


Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by ghurd on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:48:14 PM MST

"I turned 10 times, and it got worse" he said in a very high pitched voice.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by monte350c on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:22:45 PM MST

Pretty neat Ed!

This reminds me of a claw-pole laid out flat.

Speaking of which wonder if you could do the same with an old 12si - rewind the big coil in the centre of the claws with thicker wire, then put a ring of big mags around the outside where the stator used to be. Clamp the 'rotor' and rotate the ring of magnets.

Wow - I might have to give that one a try! The claws should pretty much look after cogging too. If I can think of a way to do a sim in FEMM I will. But that might lead to building one!

Keep up the great work!

Ted.



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by windstuffnow on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 08:03:53 PM MST

  Yea, my thought exactly...  I pulled out one of my old 10si units and did some playing with it.   The biggest problem is that you loose alot of flux through the system.   If you replaced the field coil with a neo the same size you only get around 1500 gauss at the fingers ( I tested one done this way ) so I would assume reversing it you would end up with something around the same gauss going through the coil.  No matter how you arrange it you loose it through the iron.   It would be quite easy making up a radial design this way but I think you'd only end up with a reversed car alternator.  It would be fun to try though... couple hundred turns of #10 wire.... ;o))

Have Fun
Windstuff Ed

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by ghurd on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:26:58 PM MST

I don't understand why doubling or trippling the coil thickness (and wire ga or number of turns) would effect the flux to the coils very much.

Also, if the outer bends of the plates were extended farther out, wouldn't this reduce the shorted out flux path between plates?  Shorted out N plate to S plate, from the outer bends to each other.

Did either of those make any sense?

How about taking the plates out much farther radius, double bend them back so the overlap on differant planes but the N-S poles overlap.  The magnets on a non-flux conductive plane between the 2.  All the flux, from both sides, of every magnet, must go through the coil, no choice.
Meaning the flux now being conducted in the magnet retaining plate is being used in one of the coil plates.
Both sides get used.

O Boy.  I know what I mean.  I could email a drawing.

G-
Ghurd.info



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by ghurd on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 06:45:26 PM MST

I mean like this.
n
   l
    coil and axle
   l
-U-

The magnets rotating between the n and U.
Looking from the axle end, the left side of the n and the right side of the U line up with a N magnet, and all vice versa.

Not much better.  I tried.

G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by bob golding on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 06:50:03 AM MST

hhi ghurd, thats a great idea,i think, try twisting the other way.

bob golding

[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by finnsawyer on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 09:36:28 AM MST

I see the possibility here of taking the rotor from an auto alternator, making it the stator, and putting a shell having the same number of magnets as the original rotor has "horns".  This would work the same as your idea, but half the manufacturing would already be done.  Of course, one might want to eventually rewind the thing with heavier wire.  The alternator rotors I've seen have room for considerably more wire.  I think this idea has some real possibilities.  Good work.
GeoM


Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:31:22 PM MST

Looks like you'd have some significant eddy current losses in the blades.

Positioning the magnets outside the rotor, rather than beside it, so the flux enters the edges of the plate, might help.  (Think of it as a laminated pole piece with a single lamination.  B-)  )  That would also get the magnetic field attraction force off the thrust bearing just as a dual-rotor would.

You could also use a stack of rotor "flowers" to make a wider laminated structure.

But you'd have similar eddy-current problems in the center.  I don't see a simple solution for that at this time.  (Maybe a bundle of laminations through the center?  Metal wires?  Or concentric cylinders?  Meanwhile the center of each "flower" in the stack would need a different-sized hole.)

The rotors of auto alternators don't have this issue because they are the field coil, not the output coil.  The mag field through them changes very slowly as the regulator adjusts it to control the output voltage.

Nevertheless, this looks like a great idea - especially for a small mill where you don't have to worry about meltdown from eddy-currents.  (I'm already thinking about three-phase variants.  B-) )



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Flux on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 02:21:25 PM MST

Although a radial version, Sturmey Archer managed to laminate their design quite well.
Virtually the only way to make it 3 phase is to stack 3 single phase machines.

The idea should be perfectly viable for small alternators, but like the transverse flux alternators they suffer badly from leakage reactance, Sturmey Archer used this to their advantage with the cycle dynamo but this tendency to limit to constant current is a bit of a nuisance for wind power.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by hvirtane on Sun Mar 06, 2005 at 05:25:35 AM MST

I think that the general layout
is a good one. If I understood it
the right way, many modern motorcycle
alts are made the same way.

Instead of having the coils
outside the rotor, the coil(s)
are inside the rotor.

It is easier to get speed
for the magnets this way.

Hugh's 'brakedrum alternator'
is based on quite similar idea.

I think that this design
is a good one, but probably
needs a laminated core for
the coil(s)?

- Hannu



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by truman on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 06:45:19 PM MST

just a thought what about an inner and outer ring of mags? slightly out of phase of each other

just thinking outside of the box you guys burn me up make my mind race LOL



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by hvirtane on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:27:23 AM MST

I've thinking about the same design
for some time.

It certainly would work well
with an inner ring of
magnets and an outer ring of magnets
and the coils there in between.
No iron needed.

But how to make that easily?

And there might be a problem
how to get the wires from
the stator out easily?
Through the axle?

- Hannu


[ Parent ]



Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by ghurd on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:45:06 PM MST

Ceiling fan wires go through the axle, or at least some fans are that way.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: single coil alternator... (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by ghurd on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:34:52 AM MST

Hi Ed,
I'm still thinking about this.
Is the axle stainless? Or doesn't it matter for this one?
G-
Ghurd.info


single coil alternator... | 26 comments (26 topical)
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