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Just a rant about wind development


By Chiron, Section Reviews
Posted on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:19:00 PM MST
Stoopid human tricks

Don't get me wrong, I AM very much in favor of alternative energy development but at least in the wind industry there seems to be a lot of ignorance on the part of politicians and the public making it difficult and sometimes counterproductive.

Localy we actualy have too much wind generating capacity.

The grid dosn't have enough capacity to carry what is produced whenever winds are sustained above about 15MPH so the wind farms take turns being curtailed when the lines reach thier carrying capacity. There are plans to add as much as 3000MW of production on the ridge over the next 5 years with commitments for half of that already.

There are good sites for wind near Minneapolis where most of the electricity in MN gets used and the infrastructure could easily absorb it, but, people don't want those "eyesores" messing up thier view of the 'burbs

Minnesota State law mandates that the power company (Excel) buy the electricity that the idle turbines would be producing if the lines could carry it away. It's a pretty  complex "deal" made with the State in order to keep it's nuke plants running a few more years. When they reach they decomissioning dates they're supposed to have replaced the capacity with renewable energy souces. But I suppose then they'll whine that they have the generating capacity but not the infrastructure to utilise it so we'll get stuck paying for electricity we don't get a few more years and they'll keep operating already obsolete Nuke plants

Since the PUC sets electric rates on a "cost plus" basis the consumers, me being one of them, wind up paying for some of our electricity twice since the coal and nuke plants have to produce what was already available.

There's plenty of this type of silliness to go around.

The Columbia River gorge has almost constant winds, Hood River, OR is the "wind surfing capitol of the world" if you believe thier chamber of commerce.
This is probably the most ideal site in the US, if not the world, for wind turbines.

Constant and strong winds blowing in the same direction 90+% of the time could eliminate the need for a yaw system.
Massive electrical transmission lines due to the dams and Aluminum smelters are already in place.
Mild temperature swings from season to season reducing stress on the turbines.
Tall towers would not be needed since the gorge acts like a wind tunnel so turbines of even higher capacity than current designs could be economicaly built.
Since most of the gorge is navagable barge based cranes could be used in construction and transportation of components.
Vestas has a manufacturing facility in Portland.
Markets for the electricity already exist.
Reducing output from the dams could benifit the salmon and other migratory fish if wind were fully developed.

Ok, so why aren't they putting hundreds of turbines in the gorge?

They're "ugly".
They might kill a bird now and then.

Like the dams, smelters, pulp plants and bridges add so much to the "natural scenery" and the smelters and pulp plants really add to the enviornmental quality of the area.

On a side note, FPLE's largest wind farm is near the eastern end of the gorge but it's located in a very spaesely populated area with no nearby market. http://www.fplenergy.com/portfolio/contents/stateline.shtml

There's some "scenic areas" that you can't build anything over 1 story if it can be seen from the river or opposite side of the gorge. Even a small turbine would be impossible to get a permit for if anyone objected.
Paint it dark green or dirt brown to blend in maybe?

The coast of Washington and Oregon both have many sites with cliffs that would be excelent for catching the prevailng westerlies off the Pacific. Gold Beach and Newcastle in Oregon stand out in my mind for this but there's plenty of areas that are probably just as good.

Aside from the objections about "scenery" there's no high capacity electrical transmission lines near the coast in those areas and a yaw system would be needed but those are standard anyway. Oh, then there's be those ugly transmission towers...

The cosat "scenery" can only be seen from a boat for the most part, I'm sure the crews on the frieghters and fishing boats wouldn't be too dissapointed if there were turbines lining the clifftops. Oh, those few rich folks that have thier own boats, forgot about them.....

The Missouri River plateu on either side of the river in the Dakotas could suppliment or replace the output of the dams leaving more water for wildlife, recreation, irrigation and municipal uses. Transmission lines already exist but many were built in the 1940s and early 50s and are in need of repair and upgrades anyway.

I'm sure there's lots of examples where wind would work well if the public objections and politics could be overcome. Offshore in the Chicago/Milwalkee area for instance, I'm only commenting on places I know personaly and only wind power.

My idea of an ideal solution would be solar panels on every roof and small turbines as common as TV antennas once were with an electric car in the garage for commuting and grocery getting.

They might not meet the entire energy needs of a household but would reduce the energy bills and dependance on forign oil and not practical in densely populated areas but every little bit helps. PV cells would have to become cheaper per Watt, a small (sub kilowatt) very low maintainance and low noise wind turbines would need to be mass produced along with small grid tie inverters and such. Technicaly a workable solution but it's the politics that will hold it back.

Being "off the grid" is not a practical solution for most people at least not in the US. Even people with acreages like the site I'm working on. What to do with the excess? Luckily SD also has regs that require the power provider to buy back at the same rate they charge up to 50kW capacity and we're only looking at 10kW max. Small electric Co-Op makes it easier too.

Oh well, enough of my rant

Destroy, then read

Just a rant about wind development | 12 comments (12 topical)

Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by outback on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 02:48:17 PM MST

how are ya going to see that cell tower if ya put a mill in front of it?
You can lead a horse to water,but you cant make him eat the trough.


Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by MelTx on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 02:59:33 PM MST


 We dont need re & infrasructure work done too costly.Our fearless leader[G.B.] can get us all the oil we need from Iraq.All it cost is about a million dollars a barrel,and a few young men's lives.Fearless leader knows whats best for us,please vote for him and his pals again.....P.S. dont worry about the national debt,thats just fantasy money.We wont have to pay it back,he will give us another tax cut.



Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Bryan1 on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 05:12:47 PM MST

Yea this thread is an interesting read so I'll put in my 2 bob's worth on the Oz front. Up in the north west of Oz at Derby the locals proposed a tidal power station, they did all the costings, enviromental studies etc then lobbied both the state and federal govt's. The public opinion was pretty high well. Then the big boys stepped in and now a gas turbine power station will be put in there instead, including an 800K'm pipeline thru virgin scrub. Now over here in SA there are a few wind farms but a good friend in high places has informed me the state govt has banned any new wind farms mainly as the eyesore will detract from tourism. Now to put icing on the cake the federal govt is spending billions on developing the greenhouse byproducts from coal powered power stations to be pumped several k's under ground. Now several years ago I heard a farmer in the mid north of SA found some yellow dye in his bore so he contacted the csiro to find out they put the dye in a bore in northern Qld and wanted it to know where it came out. Well I suppose tainting everyone's bore with carbon monoxide in the govt's view should calm the population so they can keep destroying the very land we live in. Well that's my rant for this morning.

Cheers Bryan



Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by bob golding on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 05:31:48 AM MST

hi, nice rant, the problem with  pv is that until  someones finds a better way to make them they will never repay the cost of manufacture in energy terms. now if someone were  set up a silicon melting furnace running on wind or  wave or  geo thermal it would  work. a simular idea was thought about in iceland a few years ago to slelt aluminium using a large dam. import the bauxite and cryolite export aluminium. didnt happen but yu get the idea.

bob golding



Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 04:11:29 PM MST

the problem with  pv is that until  someones finds a better way to make them they will never repay the cost of manufacture in energy terms.

A)  That's false.

B)  Even if it were true, it's the wrong comparison.

You'd need to compare the ratio of electricity delivered to energy used (and other envrionmental and otherwise costs) for panels to the same for a power grid.  By the time you factor in carnot cycle fuel costs, cutting down trees to string wires and make poles, smelting ores for transformers and wires, shipping them (and workers) to the site, etc. you come up with an ENORMOUS energy (and other stuff) bill for powering a house off the grid.

Photovoltaic is already a better deal than stringing grid connects in a lot of places - not just in rural areas either.  (Both energetically/environmentally and in dollar costs.  The latter do a pretty good job of modeling the other costs - even in this case despite all the government tweaks to the market.)

Finally:  If we ever DID try to convert to pure solar, most of the energy for the manufacturing of the panels would come from other solar collection technologies.  (You do NOT smelt ore into motlen metal or sand into glass using photovoltaic power, for instance.  Instead you use a solar furnace.)

Photovoltaics deliver energy as high-quality electric power.  To get there from other energy sources - such as heat - you generally have to lose several times as much energy as what you convert to usable electricity.  MOST of the energy used in manufacturing is low-grade heat, not high-grade electricity.

[ Parent ]



Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by bob golding on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 05:18:46 PM MST

i stand corrected, i was not not thinking of the  whole cost including the  distribution network as well. taken as a whole you are of course correct. if the  power companies would buy back electricity at something better than the miserly 10% they pay at the moment,at least here in the UK, grid-tie pv could become a viable alternative to wind.

bob golding

[ Parent ]



Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by ghurd on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 05:55:15 PM MST

My big "cost" problem in the US is all the stuff to go with the grid tie.
Not the PV cost.

The other problem, for off grid where the grid is available, is battery cost.
Replacing the batteries every 5 years or so uses up what money was saved.

It does not look good on paper as a money wise investment.

BUT it takes less energy to make a PV than it will make. No doubt.

Al producers, extrusion factories, same for glass, etc...
Then the factory makes money, the distributor and dealer too.
Remember all the shipping, from dock workers to the truck drivers to the post man.

They all make a living with the money AFTER the power costs are paid.
The power compainies make money too. They have costs and profits.

There is a lot of money changing hands with everyone needing to keep a 6 Pence.
(I don't know what a 6 Pence is really, but I know what a 6 pack is!
And PVs paid for this 6 pack!)

The power used to make a PV is a lot less compared to power it will make.
Otherwise, all these people, and the power company ar working for free.

I guess I will say it is like comparing COSTS of delivery of PV's and grid power, more than what energy is actually used.  People compare the cost of delivered PVs to the cost of delievered grid power.

G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by electrondady1 on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 08:04:16 AM MST

it's difficult not to become frustrated with the pace of the transition to a sustainable energy system. given a suficient advertisement budget, public opinion is what ever you want it to be. the only way forward that i can see is to be selfsuficient.the change can only come from the bottom up.



Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by nwcpro on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 08:28:32 AM MST

   You know, While I agree with 90% of what you said (okay, 99%), have you been to Ellensburg, WA?  We had a saying there that we didn't need trash collection:  We just threw the garbage in the air and then it was Vantage's problem. (Vantage being a small town some 40 miles to the East).  If you look to the West from Ellensburg, you could see a really large windfarm going.  It was beautiful!  I personally don't understand the "eyesore" theory.  Doesn't every idiot out there have pictures (mugs, wallpaper, placemats, you name it) of Dutch windmills?  I look at those big turbines and just get a lump in my throat.  I mean, come on!  It's certainly more romantic than a nuke plant!



Why do they call it "tourist season" if we can't shoot them?
John


Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by electrondady1 on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 11:30:35 AM MST

nwcpro i think you might have hit apon some thing good. perhapse modern windmills must be disguised as 17th century ones in order to be accepted!!! i see "yard art" windmills all over the place. thier about 4' in dia. ten or twenty of those  should do it!

[ Parent ]


Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Chiron on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 01:14:15 PM MST

I'm familiar with the site your talking about, 300 MW of windturbines owned by FPLE who I was working for until recently.

The "problem" I have with those is thier distance from any sizable market for the energy and being at the end of the gorge on top of the cliffs they aren't harvesting nearly as much as they would if they were near John Day or The Dalles in the gorge.

I know from speaking to people who did the "fexable workforce" thing out there that the capacity of the power lines can't handle full output, look at them on a really windy day and you'll notice that some on the Washington side are shut down.
Chiron > > I was here
[ Parent ]



Re: Just a rant about wind development (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by troy on Fri Apr 15, 2005 at 09:01:16 AM MST

I couldn't agree more with the shortsightness of people in general and north americans in particular.  What they need is five buck a gallon gas and 25 cent/kwh electricity and all of those "eyesore" objections will vanish into thin air.  I don't advocate artificially raising the cost of these products, I just observe that when it does happen, people will get an updated view on energy vs the the environnent vs cost. And nuke provide the highest cost electricity we have.  Just ask the experts what the cost is to store the high level waste for 250,000 years.  All of these things will happen sooner than a lot of people suspect.

Best regards,

troy

ps, the energy "debt" of a silicone solar panel is paid back in three to five years.  The next 50-80 years are free.  That's a widespread bit of baloney that they never produce enough electricity to break even.



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