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Rebuilding lead acid batteries


By nvmike, Section Mechanical
Posted on Tue May 03, 2005 at 11:33:34 PM MST
Any one remember this?

About 50 years I saw an article or plans on taking old lead acid batteries apart, remelting the lead, casting new plates,  adding a paste mixture to one plate, reasembling, resealing and charging. I think this was about the time of WWII with shortage of batteries, lead etc. Has anyone done this or know where one might find the information.  With all the old batteries around has anyone had any luck with melting the lead and selling for scrap?  
Rebuilding lead acid batteries | 23 comments (23 topical)

Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by K3CZ on Tue May 03, 2005 at 06:50:29 PM MST

I think you are in deep do-do environmentally with any attempt at lead acid battery recycling at home.  1)Hot lead is dangerous and toxic. 2) sulfuric acid can do lots of things, most of them not very user friendly. 3) Plastic battery cases; I don't think they are welcome at the local plastic recycling bins.  At least 1) and 2) are considered hazardous waste.
Once upon a time, battery cases were hard rubber, and individual cells were sealed in place with hot asphalt.  Amid much smoke (and sometimes fire) it was possible to disassemble them with a gasoline fueled blowtorch and end up with plates you could flush, and cases you could clean out and reassemble.  I firmly believe this is not practical with today's versions.
Best bet: take them to a junkyard (there are some) who handle batteries and collect the few cents/lb that they offer.
                                            VAN            K3CZ



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by jimjjnn on Tue May 03, 2005 at 08:44:32 PM MST

In times past, batteries were made to rebuild.No longer today. K3CZ(Van) has it correct. Too many bad things happen if you attempt rebuilding batteries. Just cutting into one can give you surprises.
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by doceanboy on Tue May 03, 2005 at 09:05:21 PM MST

This may be too far out of the box.... but I was thinking what if you had a bad cell in a 12v battery and you shorted it out.... by hmmm filling the cell with metal fileings or lead.... so now would you have a good 10v battery??.... now im not sure what you could do with 10v "10x5=50" on a 48v system? ... or could you short out 3 cells on each of two 12v and get 2x 6v? or many combinations to get 6 12 24........

[ Parent ]


Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by nvmike on Tue May 03, 2005 at 10:35:21 PM MST

No need to fill the bad cell with metal to short it out.  Just drill into the lead lugs on each side of bad cell, tap in bolts, and jump wire past the bad cell.

[ Parent ]


Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by commanda on Wed May 04, 2005 at 07:02:01 AM MST

As a general rule of thumb, if one cell's gone, the rest aren't far behind.

General rules of thumb(s)? being what they are, I'm sure every man & his dog has anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

Amanda

[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by pyrocasto on Tue May 03, 2005 at 10:45:55 PM MST

Well hell, I've brought my "bad" battery up to 10.5~ volts from 8.5~ volts. I just left a 2A trickle charge on it for a good while. It will remain on there until I'm able to tell if it will come back to 12 or not.

Anyone think it's possable to put alot of amps for a split second into the battery, and maybe burn of the short(if it was barely there).



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by jimjjnn on Wed May 04, 2005 at 06:37:08 AM MST

I pulse 1.25 nicads with a quick jolt of 12 volts to bring them back. Don't know if that would work with lead acid batts tho. Works everytime. . I am a good distance away when I turn on the switch to the charger tho
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by ghurd on Wed May 04, 2005 at 07:19:40 AM MST

I don't think that is a good idea.  Speaking as someone who has seen them explode.

Nicd's and Nimh's are a lot different than a wet battery.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by pyrocasto on Wed May 04, 2005 at 11:20:00 AM MST

but I thought they exploded mainly from the Hydrogen?

I've just heard someone on here do it with a welder quickly.

Plus, if it does blow up, at least the dead battery gave you a show. ;-)

[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by ghurd on Wed May 04, 2005 at 11:53:16 AM MST

Covered in acid and hoping someone will think to hose you down quickly...
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by jimjjnn on Wed May 04, 2005 at 12:20:45 PM MST

Yep, If it explodes, you will have a huge mess that will be impossible to clean up. I think tho I'm not sure. It takes a pound of baking soda to neutralize a gallon of acid and then you have to find where all the acid flew to. In cracks of walls and floors in the pores of concrete. You will find acid years later eating away the area of spill
Denver,CO
[ Parent ]


Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by nothing to lose on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:48:30 PM MST

As I just posted, I gave 40amps maybe 12V to large 6V Trojans. I did not mention though that when cells bubble and fizz like soda pop that is lots of hydrogen being released, ready to explode!! I was very careful to not have any sparks around!
 If that charger was really putting out 12V then that would have been 80 amps 6V? And when tested with a meter I was showing 12.5V or so at the 6V terminals on the charger wires :O

As far as acid eating stuff, yea that's a biggy. And I wonder what I will do about the floor of my truck now? Pinhole leak I mentioned and refilling a larger trojan cell twice was on a wood plank floor in my box truck :(
It got well soaked I am sure, now will soda soak in as well or just work at the surface?
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by nothing to lose on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:37:05 PM MST

"Anyone think it's possable to put alot of amps for a split second into the battery, and maybe burn of the short(if it was barely there)."

Well,,,
 I now have a 6V holding 5.98V after doing some things. It was sitting at or slightly below 4V, would charge up to 6.5V charge it looked like then I could watch the metter as it dropped .01V all the way back down to 4V over night. I gave it 40amps with a 12V smart charger! Not sure if the smart charger was kicking out the 12V or dropped back to 6V, but 6V is not listed on this smart charger as any option. It sounded like it was runing a heavy load than normall but the cooling fan also seemed to be runing about half speed. Anyway this seems like it might have helped 2 batteries that I did that to so far, and 2 others show no change yet still shot.

Also I was slow charging them wired up as 2 6V making 12V. These are slightly smaller than an L16p Trojan (L16P rated 360amphrs) so I geuss at these being near 300amphr batteries, so 10amps I figured was slow. I also did some pulse charging on them. They were charge for some time at 2amps also.
 2 of 4 now hold about 2V more than they did, though still right at 6V and 5.95V.
Not really good yet, but they have definatly come up from where they started at.
 I am thinking this might be a good use for a dump load. If the batteries come alive and useable again great, save alot of money reconditioning junk battereries for a larger bank. If not, well you still got to dump the extra power as needed and you don't waste all this power like I am now trying to bring back ones that may be hopeless anyway.

How can I seal a pinhole leak?? I think one of these will be decent but it has a pinhole leak, cell was almost totally dry, I filled it, later almost dry, filled it, found very slow seaping 1/3 from the bottom. This is holding nearly 6V now, after filling twice like that I know it can't have any real acid in that cell now. Seal the leak, pulse charge alot, drain cell refill with acid (a little weaker than normal) and I think this will be a really good one. Though being patched I would probably use it for a seperate bank, not in the main one.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Ex Mek on Wed May 04, 2005 at 03:46:23 AM MST

  Fork lift batteries come as multipal 2 volt cells ,here in the UK we change dead cells regularly ,cut the bridge ,  cut the case with a hot knife and pull the cell clean out the hole , fit the new cell and fill with the acid water mix and re solder the bridge, , takes about 20 mins per cell, plastic cells are sealed with a car bumper type plastic welder gun .we often make one " good " battery from two scraped batteries by exchanging the cells ,



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by richhagen on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:35:31 AM MST

As far as what nvmike is talking about, I don't think that is a good idea.  Lead atoms all over the place and in solution, sounds like a recipe for lead poisoning and elevated lead levels in the blood stream.  I don't know how you would do it cleanly without contaminating everything and yourself where you rebuilt the battery at.  The savings would not be worth the risk in my humble opinion.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'


Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Mike Wolak on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:08:44 AM MST

What about the thought of making your own battery?  Plastic fishing bucket, lead plates, ect. Is it possible or a stupid idea?  What is the draw backs on making your own lead acid battery?



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by ghurd on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:24:18 AM MST

Very possible.

But
very dangerous,
very poisonous,
would not work very well at all,
would not last very long at all,
very much more expensive,
VERY not a good idea,
and some other verys I didn't think of right now.

Stuff like "Lead Plates" are much fancier than they sound.
I can buy 100% silicon in a tube for $4.
Solar cells are silicone.
Smearing $4 worth of silicone on a piece of glass does not make a solar panel.
If you see what I mean...

G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by nothing to lose on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:59:19 PM MST

No, but you can take a thin copper sheet, heat it till it oxidizes black, scrub off the black oxidation but be carful not to remove the red oxidation under it, tap into the copper backing and the red oxide front, you now have a solar cell that will produce power in the sun. If you can figure how to run a nice little grid of wire or aluminum window screen you can get more power from it.

I made a couple small ones, they worked! Have no idea how many square feet you would need per watt though :)
 I just played around making a couple, no real effort put into it or testing done. Just  stuck them under 100watt bulb and tested with a digital meter. Power was there, I forget how much or what size I made. Was about 1 or 2 years ago.
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by mcgivor on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:25:18 AM MST

I tried to "scrap out" car batteries once, becides the acid to deal with, the lead vapor is a big hazard.  I was able to do it on a large ranch without having to worry about things.  The amount of lead that was useable was not worth it.  I was able to dispose of the waste at the wrecking yard where I worded on weekends.  



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by nothing to lose on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:08:47 PM MST

 I don't know where it is, but it's on the web. Full details how it was done in the old days. Desoldering the bad plates, re-soldering the new plate. How to tell whats good and bad. Pressing warps out of a bent plate, etc..
 Taking several junk batteries same size and ratings apart and using the good plates to make one new battery etc...

But as everyone has said already, saftey is a BIG concern!!! I fully agree also!

That said, I do alot of unsafe stupid things myself though. Not all of us plan to live to 100 or even want to realy. Myself, I'd rather have fun :)

The auto type batteries are not worth messing with in my opion. The plates are normally to thin and brittle, and just plain junk. I only took apart a couple, years ago, but that was my find. For the big heavy duty deepcycles that may be different, but i have not takin one apart as yet. If the 4 trojans do not come back to useable life, I may take one a part. I will do this with all saftey in mind! I have done lots of harmfull things in my life, construction work re-moving asbestus insulation, walking steel beams high in the air (one job a person fell and died) etc..
 So why would this be any different?

First I would have a container ready to store the acid in. It is not a waste product or eviorment hazzard if you re-use it! It is a hazzard if you spill it on yourself or other things or if you dump it in the back yard or a river maybe, but not if you put it back in a battery!

I have no idea yet how I would open a case. Depends on battery types and such and must be done with re-sealling it leak free in mind. This could be tricky.

Don't grind lead!! Grinding makes lots of dust, you never want that! For the most part to remove and replace lead plates there should not be much hazzards in handling the lead itself. Wear good gloves, don't eat drink or pick your nose while working! Maybe wear a safty mask, use good ventilation. If/When soldering use very good ventilation.
 Don't work in any regularly used areas, no kitchen table, not the family garage, certainly nowhere kids will be around, now or latter.
 Maybe for the ulimate in saftey you could even use a sand basting cabnet with those heavy built in rubber gloves, but that would probably be extreme.

Use a bit more than common sense if you attempt any such work!! Common sense alone may not be enough, so study up on lead itself and other things related like the acid. Take all saftey precausions. Keep sealed water handy by the gallons maybe in case of accident like acid in an eye, and baking soda for any spills, a strong mix of water and soda is good too. Don't breath the fumes when cleaning up a spill!

 I had a brand new deepcycle I spilled in my van on the way home, deer ran out in front of me. I missed the deer by 6"s it seemed and the next day I went to get the battery, well I was suprised to find it on it's side!! Lost all the carpet in the front of the van too! Gallons of soda and water took care of the acid, razor knife took care of the carpet, cut it along the back of the front seat and removed all of it in the front and all the padding under it, it was mush and much disolved!! The fumes were terrible even with the front doors and sliding side door open. Took all day to clean that one spill! Normally I would not carry a battery like that, but you know, stopped at wall-mart and grabed it on the way home late at night type of thing.

As for working with lead itself. Not the safest thing to do, but not as bad as it's made out to be if using good work habbits and you learn what your doing before you do it. I know guys 70's that cast their own lead bullets and fishing sinkers and have done so all their lifes. I knew some pretty old guys that used to do the lead work on the old cars also. None of them have any lead related problems with health, no-one in their families do either. Then there are alot of others who have worked lead far less and have lots of problems.
 I have seen guys working on a car, handle the battery cables, clean posts, put terminals back on, then pick up a sandwich and eat it never washing their hands. Not only yuck, but think of all the lead they were eating!!! Battery posts and terminals are lead and they cleaned them with a wire cleaner even making dust. Them I expect to have lead problems, not because lead is so dangerous but because they are so dumb!!!!

Using lots of smarts and proper working enviromnet, I don't see why taking a battery apart would be any more hazzardous than cleaning the posts and terminals on the car and filling the battery then jump starting the car. People do that all the time when they have a dead battery because they never check the water level. Rarely does the average person even wear gloves while doing it. Lots of lead on the hands!
 Some people do dumb things and eat a sandwich while working, smoke while filling and charging etc.. and they hurt themselfs.

I don't recommend to anyone taking apart a battery, but if your going to do it, be safe about it and know the risks involved and be preparred if an accident should happen. And take a bath/change clothes before playing with the baby or kids!!
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Aelric on Thu May 05, 2005 at 08:31:39 PM MST

Nothing to lose is right, taking apart a lead acid battery is a bad idea.  If you ever have the misfortune of having an acid burn, or getting some shrapnel stuck in you due to an unplanned explosion you can imagine what it would be like to have both (have experienced both though in minor versions of each, I have no intention of repeating them)  If you do happen to get acid poured on you, best thing to do is take a shower as quickly as you can.  Remove all clothing on the affected area and scrub the area as best as you can, if it does not stop burning seek medical attention. If you get acid in your eyes, flush them out thoroughly, even if you think you have it out keep flushing for good measure hehehehe.  But of course the best bet is always to be safe rather than sorry.  Wear the proper PPE, gloves, faceshield, apron and make sure the batteries are properly ventilated (just a pipe running outside would be fine) Anyway I know I might seem like a weenie but I much rather be extra safe and keep my eyesight/skin undamaged :-)  And my wife appreciates it too hehehehehe.

Just my two bits,

Aelric

[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by Kevin L on Sat May 07, 2005 at 07:39:59 AM MST

Are you all suggesting that all of us in Electronic are taking our life in our own hands by all the hours we spend soldering wires together. After all Wire Solder is still 60/40 -- Tin/ Lead.   Most of the electrical technicians and engineers that do this on a regular basis are not droping IQ points by the dozens.  On second though maybe we shouldn't be soldering wire together on our Home made generators.  It is after all much to dangerous to work with lead.

Kevin L

[ Parent ]



Re: Rebuilding lead acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by nothing to lose on Sun May 08, 2005 at 02:45:44 PM MST

Do I hear a small echo :)
That's kinda my point, mention lead and panic often sets in. But how much lead do we normally handle anyway.

Hmm, remember those old cowboy days and six shooters, or some military personel, take a shot in the wrong place and the bullet can't be moved, or fragments. Now that I would call some serious lead in the body! Many lived fine other than lots of pain etc..
 I knew a war Vet that had a lead bullet in him for many many years, surgery was to risky, was too close to spine or something. They did finally remove it, the bullet shifted after many years and surgery technics also got better over the years.

So yes lead is dangerous in the wrong conditions and over exposure, grinding dusts probably the worst! 10lbs melted lead probably not good to breath fumes either!!
 But no reason it can't be handled safely also with lots of care.

Proposition 86 or something declares that everything in the world is known to the State of California to cause cancer and reproductive harm, but isn't that also where Trojan batteries come from??
.
nothing to lose

Spelin and tpying are my strong points, not electronics.
[ Parent ]



Rebuilding lead acid batteries | 23 comments (23 topical)
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